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Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#91

Post by itchyouch »

izacus wrote: post #69
atonse wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic is actually simple: If you're trying to plug in a USB device, just plug it in. It'll work, regardless of whether it's TB 3 or just plain USB 3. (update: this is probably for 99% of cases since USB is much more common than TB) If you're trying to plug in a thunderbolt 3 device, it's very likely you know if you have thunderbolt.

Will I? I've seen software developers (tech people!) return their MacBooks to Apple store because they wouldn't drive a Thunderbolt display (with the issue of course being that older MBs had only DisplayPort output, which is physically identical). This will cause confusion (especially with added confusion around DisplayPort standard support over the USB connector) and it's unfortunate that a new connectivity standard…

I'd imagine that Apple has learned from history that its proprietary & non-widespread (niche) connectors have not seen the type of industry-wide adoption that they would have liked to have seen (a la ADC, firewire, iPhone 1st gen, etc) regardless of technical merit. They have diverted from industry standards when the current off-the-shelf components did not necessarily meet their design desires/criteria.

I'm guessing that they found a pretty decent strategy when thunderbolt took on the mini-dp port and added thunderbolt to the mini-dp connector. Sure there's some confusion in plugging thunderbolt into a mini-dp port, but as Apple was concerned, they were not taking away any functionality, but merely just adding the thunderbolt feature to an existing port.

Apple's potential adoption of Thunderbolt using the Type-C connector would be a similar strategy to the mini-dp/thunderbolt strategy. This finally allows them to unify ports on their whole line up macbook/pro/iphone/ipad/atv/accessories/power/displays, which with their scale would probably translate to a pretty massive reduction in cost for maintaining inventory of the many assortments of ports and manufacturing.

Based on the direction they've taken with the new Macbook and this announcement, It's pretty obvious that this is the direction they would like to go with and lays out the foundation for the expansion of the retina iMac into a retina thunderbolt display.

I'd say it's definitely more of a feature than it is a regression. The world of consumers has shown that it's been able to cope with USB 1 -> 1.1 -> 2 -> 3, with very little pain. For most people it will be the Type-C connector running at speeds varying from 12Mbps, 480Mbps, 10Gbps, 40Gbps... If you have the higher speed, you can supper everything below it (kind of like 10G/40G ethernet). Mac's will probably be sold with 40Gb Type-C ports, iPhones with 480Mb Type-C ports, Retina displays with 40Gb Type-C ports, all with the consumer being none-the-wiser as to whether they are running in USB mode or Thunderbolt mode.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#92

Post by andor »

IshKebab wrote: post #85
Already__Taken wrote: post #10

Seems to be trading all our different ports with the problem of having all levels of different cables? This port is going to be very expensive for the manufactures. If it does everything I'm going to need a bunch. Does anything stop OEMs making a row of identical ports that only 1 charges my laptop, only a couple take can use the fastest cable and I'm sure all sorts of potential shenanigans,

This already happens. My laptop has three USB ports. One with just the USB symbol, one with the superspeed USB symbol ("SS") and one with the superspeed symbol and a lightening bolt. I'm not sure exactly what that lightning bolt... Who knows what that means - maybe support for the Battery Charging Specification (5V, 1.5A)? We'll just have to get used to ports having a load of obscure symbols next to them.

The port with the lightning bolt might charge devices even when the laptop is turned off.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#93

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

lectrick wrote: post #35
izacus wrote: post #14

Hmm, I don't understand the description fully - does that mean that it can happen that I can get a device with USB-C plug, plug it into computer and it won't work because the device uses Thunderbolt 3 and the computer isn't an Apple? Or will all Thunderbolt 3 devices be able to scale back and communicate with devices over USB if the controller is not available? How will that work with displays over USB-C connectors?…

For the record, 1) Apple was the first to use USB even though it wasn't an Apple tech 2) Apple was the first to use Thunderbolt even though it wasn't an Apple tech 3) Apple is now the first to use USB 3 Type C (aka "USB-C") even though it wasn't an Apple tech (although rumor has it that Apple engineers had a lot of input on it) The technology you're probably confusing it with is FireWire, which WAS Apple tech.

Thunderbolt uses the Mini DisplayPort connector which was and is Apple tech, although DisplayPort itself is not.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#94

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

donatj wrote: post #17

When Thunderbolt was first released it caused a lot of confusion in my office for people with DisplayPort who couldn't hook up to Thunderbolt monitors, bought for them by our IT group that really didn't understand the difference. I see this problem coming on strong AGAIN with this. This port is just USB-C while this other port is USB-C and Thunderbolt... That sounds like a load of confusion waiting to happen.

To be fair, Thunderbolt is backwards-compatible with DisplayPort. You can use a DisplayPort display with a Thunderbolt port, but the reverse isn't true.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#95

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

hjnilsson wrote: post #3

And finally, the future has arrived. If the iPhone 7 (doubt the 6S) sports USB-C as well, there will be a truly universal connector. Imagine screens, laptops, TVs, phones, mp3 players, docks, hard drives and toasters all using the same plug (well, maybe not the last one). There will be a painful time of transition until we are there, but hopefully it will be the last one. (Conveniently this also saves Apple on the ne…

> there will be a truly universal connector

Well, the connector will have a universal shape. But the cables won't work universally (you need special ones for high-speed Thunderbolt), and two things sharing a connector won't mean they'll work together due to different protocols (USB 3, DisplayPort, Thunderbolt, others).

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#96

Post by genericuser »

jacobolus wrote: post #9
imaginenore wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple using a standard connector, dream on.

> Apple using a standard connector, dream on. Apple is clearly pushing heavily behind the scenes in both the USB-IF and with Intel/Thunderbolt to drive USB Type C ports. Reportedly their engineers did much of the work designing the port. Looking at their one-port Macbook, they’re obviously heavily invested in USB Type C’s success. I assume every future Mac is going to be mostly USB Type C ports. Can you clarify what…

I just want to thank you for qualifying your description of Apple's contribution to USB-C in a correct manner, as opposed to perpetuating the myth that Apple invented USB-C. It's initial conception having come out of the USB 3.1 development by AMD, HP, Intel, and Microsoft. It is refreshing to see someone not spreading the revisionist history that has been popular on this subject.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#97

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

the8472 wrote: post #81
out_of_protocol wrote: post #15

One port to rule em all

Considering the DMA vulnerabilities of thunderbolt, that's not too far off. At least until we have some sort of IOMMU-based hotplug device firewalls in our operating systems.

USB 3.0 has DMA too.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#98

Post by zanny »

jacobolus wrote: post #6
hjnilsson wrote: post #3

And finally, the future has arrived. If the iPhone 7 (doubt the 6S) sports USB-C as well, there will be a truly universal connector. Imagine screens, laptops, TVs, phones, mp3 players, docks, hard drives and toasters all using the same plug (well, maybe not the last one). There will be a painful time of transition until we are there, but hopefully it will be the last one. (Conveniently this also saves Apple on the ne…

> they can now have both USB A and USB C ports without it being weird I’m expecting them to kill off USB type A ports entirely on future laptops. We’ll see what happens to Magsafe, HDMI, and SD card slots. I wouldn’t be too surprised to see a Macbook Pro with 4–6 USB type C (Thunderbolt 3) ports, a headphone jack, and nothing else. > Imagine screens, laptops, TVs, phones, mp3 players, docks, hard drives and toasters…

You can do DP to HDMI, DVI, or VGA. So a USB-C DP plug supersedes all other display ports.

I agree on SD cards though, just because most SD Card slots can impress the card into the frame of the machine for portability.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#99

Post by organsnyder »

lucaspiller wrote: post #30
hjnilsson wrote: post #3

And finally, the future has arrived. If the iPhone 7 (doubt the 6S) sports USB-C as well, there will be a truly universal connector. Imagine screens, laptops, TVs, phones, mp3 players, docks, hard drives and toasters all using the same plug (well, maybe not the last one). There will be a painful time of transition until we are there, but hopefully it will be the last one. (Conveniently this also saves Apple on the ne…

> Imagine screens, laptops, TVs I have no doubts they will continue to have VGA ports until 2025...

Intel's upcoming Skylake architecture is rumored to not support VGA. That might speed along its demise somewhat.

I actually use the VGA port on my ThinkPad somewhat regularly—it's still the most common display connector in many offices. However, I do carry dongles for HDMI and DVI (adapting from the built-in DisplayPort) just in case. I'm looking forward to having USB-C replace all of them.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#100

Post by mikeash »

jawngee wrote: post #90
FreakyT wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, provided that the standard provides for some degree of backwards compatibility. I think it's great how a USB 3.0 drive will still work on a USB 1.0 computer from 1999. Sure, it'll run slower, but it'll work , and even without an adapter! With Apple's previous various high-speed ports (Firewire 400, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt), they have no backwards compatibility -- from FW 400 -> 800 you could use an adap…

from FW 400 -> 800 you could use an adaptor, but for Thunderbolt you're out of luck completely No you aren't: http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Thunderbolt-to-FireWire-Adapter/...

That only works in one direction. You can use it to connect FireWire devices to a computer with Thunderbolt, but you can't use it to connect Thunderbolt devices to a computer with FireWire.

Contrast with USB. I can go out and buy a USB storage device brand new off the shelf in 2015, plug it into an iMac from 1998, and it will work. It will be slow but it will work out of the box.

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