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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#112A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…
Just bear in mind for your calculations that in Switzerland a cup of coffee often costs $6 as does a can of coke. Cost of living is extremely high. But still, this does look like a decent deal. Zurich is like San Francisco in terms of expenses.
Stop with this senseless FUD, will you.
A cup of coffee in Starbucks may cost $6. A cup of (a better) coffee in any cafe 2-3 CHF. Can of Coke is about the same if bought in a touristy place, but in a grocery shop it's a 2L bottle that will be that much.
> Cost of living is extremely high.
It's not. Cost of luxurious living is extremely high. In Geneva, in Zurich, perhaps in Bern and Basel. But you drive 10 minutes out of these cities and you have people who earn 40K CHF and live safely and decently, while still working in Geneva, Zurich, Bern and Basel. Things do cost more than in other countries, on average, but then an average Swiss lives well enough not to ever need a Wallmart.
(edit) You can downvote me all you want. I lived in Switzerland for few years, so $6 can of Coke is the Swiss version of bears on Moscow's streets - it's a cute bullshit.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#113A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…
> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income.
My (probably wrong) impression was that hardly any Swiss work those kinds of jobs anymore as it is, and that the country relies on migrant temporary workers. How true is this?
Also, your comment is great in general. It really made me think.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#114A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…
> this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. Switzerland's per capita GDP is about USD 79000/year, so assuming 80% of the Swiss population are adults and citizens, this would cost about 34% of GDP, which may be unaffordable.
Also: Keep in mind that you could cut almost all social systems (unemployment insurance, the whole departments that manage that stuff currently, ...)
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#115Switzerland has twice the amount of asylum seekers per capita, compared to the EU average. That seems to be the result of a fairly open asylum policy. Some people find it's too open and complain about that. With the concept of a basic income like this, I suppose their asylum policy would have to become more restrictive.
The problem isn't necessarily the asylum count but the free flow of people from the EU.
They can just come and if they get a job they can stay. Many recruiters are getting jobs for people from the EU before they even move.
On the other side, with a growing economy there aren't enough well educated Swiss to full the open positions.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#116I would greatly prefer a basic income to the thousands of poorly run programs that aim to help the poor. The poor are not helpless but simply don't make enough money for some minimal standard of living (i.e. they are poor). A side effect of many existing programs is that they make the poor dependent and actually discourage self-improvement. A basic income would minimize these unfortunate but real consequences of help…
Interesting here is everyone would get it. Making 200k, 500k CHF a year? You also get the basic income.
For mid-wage jobs, I imagine employers will reduce salaries to compensate, meaning the middle-class employee will likely net the same-ish. Or, rather, would stagnate raises for years until the salary equalizes. For people who make a lot of money and have more leverage over their salaries in negotiations, their salaries would likely not change, suggesting it'd be a government-sponsored raise.
I'm curious where the money for this will come from, what percentage of personal and corporate taxes will be increased.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#117A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…
One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. The people who already do them: immigrants, which make up more than 20% of the population of Switzerland.
Though heck of a lot of these immigrants work in CERN, Nestle, Fifa, Phillip-Morris and other internationals rather than washing toilets and sweeping streets.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
> this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. Switzerland's per capita GDP is about USD 79000/year, so assuming 80% of the Swiss population are adults and citizens, this would cost about 34% of GDP, which may be unaffordable.
Define "unaffordable". It's really annoying that people say "it's unaffordable" to mean "we don't want to pay", when the phrase is supposed to mean "we can't pay, we don't have enough money". I understand why people don't want to part with money, but at least let's be honest. If you sort everyone from poorest to richest, and plot their incomes on a graph, basic income just means that the slope is flatter than before…
Your graph has the richest people making less than they did before. This is unlikely to happen.
The affordable question is one of: where the money's going to come from? How will small or large businesses, poor/middle-class/wealthy private individuals be required to support it?
The initiative's organizing committee said the basic income could partly be financed through money from social insurance systems in Switzerland.
I don't think the initiative people really have a clear idea.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
> this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. Switzerland's per capita GDP is about USD 79000/year, so assuming 80% of the Swiss population are adults and citizens, this would cost about 34% of GDP, which may be unaffordable.
Have you discounted the 20-25% of immigrants who are counted in the GDP per capita, but who almost certainly won't receive this income?
No I haven't. If 22.5% of the population are foreigners (who won't get it), and 80% of Swiss people are adults, then the calculation becomes: 336000.80.775/79000 which is the lower figure of 26.4% of GDP.
Edit: fixed typo.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#120A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…
> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I think that with basic income, this question would not make sense, and that's exactly the reason that I like the idea so much. The reason why people do boring, dirty and dangerous work for little money is that there are folks who have no skills that would enable them to get a more fulfill…
> With a decent basic income scheme, i.e. the basic needs of the people taken care of, the job market would probably flip: You would have to pay people very well for doing unpleasant work, and not so well for fulfilling jobs.
This is an interesting premise.
It would probably cause a lot of firms to be started, that compete to do those 'shitty jobs' - that could potentially drive the cost down and be done much better.
This experiment would be VERY interesting indeed.