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Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

37signals.com

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Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#111

Post by drusenko »

markh wrote: post #21
swombat wrote: post #12

I think it's quite bad form to publicly attack another company like this without discussing it in private first. I see no indication that there was any communication between 37Signals and GetSatisfaction prior to this very public post. I've had this kind of thing done to me before, and I think it's really out of order. Essentially, 37Signals have decided, in this case, to trade politeness and "being good" for making…

I'm in the camp that says 37Signals have a valid point. Let's assume their intention is not about traffic but is to pressure GetSatisfaction into rectifying the situation as quickly as possible (and not just for 37Signals) then as harsh as the post may have been: 1) 37Signals have used their considerable influence to achieve change on behalf of many sites who have far less influence 2) 37Signals used the open model o…

I've been complaining about this for a while now and I'd tend to agree here. The whole getsatisfaction service is sort of like a blackmail scheme to start out with: They try hard to attract all of your users to their site, to be the "Weebly support forum", and then users are disappointed when their requests aren't answered.

What's most annoying is that GetSatisfaction has a strong selection bias towards the users who have problems, and so it very negatively affects the image of the company. There is no way to respond to those users or fix their problems besides buying into the whole scam and doing support on their site.

FYI, their support system has so much more overhead than the one we use internally that I'd estimate our support costs would increase 2-3X by moving all of our support into their system.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#112

Post by vizard »

webwright wrote: post #104
mechanical_fish wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the goal with a response? As I've said elsewhere in this thread: To reach the people -- potentially thousands of people -- who cared enough to type the name of your company into a search engine, but who then read some misleading but official-looking information, came away thinking that your company is kind of lame, and will never be heard of again unless you act. Just because your prospective customers are inv…

No, I was saying: "What is 37s trying to achieve with a response?" I think the correct answer is: "To get GS to make the site look less official/confusing and a bit less insulting". If that's the goal, which gets their business there faster? A 15 minute phone call or a well-worded 1 hour rant on the blog? I TOTALLY agree that GS is confusing, especially for novice users. In fact, I'll go farther and say that the chan…

"To get GS to make the site look less official/confusing and bit less insulting" is only part of the answer.

The other part, as mechanical_fish has elqouently pointed out above, is to reach present/past/potential customers of 37s who were mislead by GS into thinking that 37s does not answer customer questions. Contacting GS alone would not have solved the damage GS already did. It was not enough for 37s to prevent future abuse, but also to turn back the damage already done in the past.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#113

Post by ericb »

wheels wrote: post #50
mechanical_fish wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's quite bad form to publicly attack another company like this without discussing it in private first. Whereas I think a public statement of outrage is entirely justified. Take a look at the screenshot. GetSatisfaction has been collecting feedback under the 37signals name for at least a month. Those people who typed messages into GetSatisfaction expecting a response have been disappointed for a while. Anyon…

Loud public fuss is usually a reasonable backup plan if asking them to change doesn't work, but starting off by asking people to resolve something lends you credibility because you've tried to resolve things amicably. If you want to put a squeeze on them, you can add, "Or we're going to lambaste you in our popular blog." But starting off that way is just obnoxious. Granted, as noted, being obnoxious drives page views…

GetSatisfaction's opening line in the "conversation" was: "We will be using your trademarks and collateral to imply that you are not interested in supporting your customers." GetSatisfaction had already lambasted 37 Signals.

How did GetSatisfaction, and you, reasonably expect the conversation to proceed from there? Gentle pleading on 37 Signals part? What???

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#114

Post by blasdel »

jrockway wrote: post #97

What's the difference between something like this and Yelp? (Why is this bad, and Yelp's not? Is it because people here all have online businesses, and don't want a forum where people could say something bad about them?)

Yelp is even worse on the extortion front, they have sales guys that make shakedown calls: http://jwz.livejournal.com/1002269.html

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#115

Post by enjo »

webwright wrote: post #68
enjo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that other folks on the web would have no idea this was going on. A private e-mail likely results in a private response (changing the wording on 37signals's get satisfaction page). A public exposure gets things changed... as it did. The fact is that GS got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. To think that the wording on that banner was not carefully considered is just plain naive. The 37 signals post is…

I dunno if you've ever worked in a small startup, but to think that all wording that gets out the door gets vetted all the time is just ridiculous. My startup is pretty careful, but we've gotten caught with mistakes or even placeholder content once or twice. Chances are, some lowbie at the company said, "Oh, this will improve the text, I bet. I'll make sure to bring it up in the next design review". If a private comm…

I'm currently at my third.

Even if it was placeholder content it had been on the site for more than a week, on every single non-paying customers page. That's not something that just slips by. This isn't a typo in the terms of service, it's a marketing tool.

Give me a break. Your never going to convince me this was a simple mistake.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#116

Post by ryanwaggoner »

sah wrote: post #88
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally OT, but aren't posts like this and other similar "I agree" posts redundant? I thought that's what the little up-mod button was for? This feels like clutter to me.

Isn't "this feels like clutter to me" what the down-mod button is for?

I did down-mod it, but I see it often enough that I wanted to bring it up and see if I was misunderstanding something.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#117

Post by enzoenoch »

mechanical_fish wrote: post #82
wheels wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loud public fuss is usually a reasonable backup plan if asking them to change doesn't work, but starting off by asking people to resolve something lends you credibility because you've tried to resolve things amicably. If you want to put a squeeze on them, you can add, "Or we're going to lambaste you in our popular blog." But starting off that way is just obnoxious. Granted, as noted, being obnoxious drives page views…

Loud public fuss is usually a reasonable backup plan if asking them to change doesn't work. You still haven't grasped the problem. I'm sure that 37signals could easily have used quiet channels to remove the offending pages, messages, and marketing copy on GetSatisfaction. But that would not have reached me . Up until three hours ago I was wandering through the world, with a faint memory of the time that I followed a…

You knowing that that support page solves the problem for you but not for 37 Signals, or for GetSatisfaction. And that's the problem with airing dirty laundry in public. It would have been much better for Jason to reach out to Lane and talk to them about this first, as this approach makes creates adversity.

It is called etiquette-- it is also called allowing your opponent a way out. A cornered opponent always fights harder. Fortunately for Jason, the GetSatisfaction folks are obsessed with listening and responding. They drink their own kool-aid. But had it been anybody else, this could have ended really poorly.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#118

Post by sachinag »

imgabe wrote: post #52

The site also hosts, without permission, company support pages for over 14,000 companies. They’ll use your logo, title the page “Customer service & support for [COMPANY NAME HERE]” and generally make it feel like an officially sanctioned place to get official support from the company in question. If they're using your company's logo and name, and those are a registered trademark, isn't that grounds for a lawsuit? Isn…

The whole point of trademark law is consumer confusion. GetSatisfaction has exposed themselves to an insane amount of legal liability by setting up pages for companies without their permission.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#119

Post by nkurz »

Semiapies wrote: post #99
jrockway wrote: post #97

What's the difference between something like this and Yelp? (Why is this bad, and Yelp's not? Is it because people here all have online businesses, and don't want a forum where people could say something bad about them?)

Because when I go to Yelp and look up Morton's Steakhouse in Atlanta GA, I see clearly marked reviews , not "Complaint Department and Feedback for Morton's Steakhouse". I don't see ads for Morton's competitors that only go away if Morton's sends Yelp money. Seriously, you might find the linked blog post interesting.

"I don't see ads for Morton's competitors that only go away if Morton's sends Yelp money."

Actually, this seems to be exactly what Yelp does:

Here's what advertisers receive, according to an e-mailed sales pitch that a local business owner sent to this newspaper. They can highlight a favorite review to appear at the top of the page about their business. They also show up first in search results for similar businesses in their region (for example "coffee" near "Alameda, CA"). Ads for that business appear on the page of local competitors, while competitors' ads do not appear on their page.

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/gyrobase/yelp_and_the_business...

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#120

Post by donaq »

JoelSutherland wrote: post #7
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #3

For what it's worth, Thor Muller (Cofounder of Get Satisfaction) responded in the comments and said the wording was a mistake and would be changed immediately: "Gosh, we messed up on the wording of that badge and are changing it pronto. The wording on that badge was actually intended to explicitly state that the space was NOT OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED by the company, but that doesn’t come off at all. The idea is to encou…

The text in the badge is/was: 37signals has not yet committed to open conversation about its products and services. Encourage them to join and support the Company-Customer Pact. I really have a hard time believing that this was an oversight. It is at the top of almost every page. When you consider GetSatisfaction's strategy it is even well written.

Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but could this have possibly been deliberate? The language in the badge seemed quite unambiguous to me. Could they have done this deliberately, waiting for someone big (and somewhat vocal) like, oh, 37signals to notice and speak up, then swiftly make apologies and correct the "accident"? If this is true, then GetSatisfaction has truly played 37signals, HN and possibly many other sites as news gets around, like a flute. A publicity coup of magnificent (if a tad Machiavellian) proportions.
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