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Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

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Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#111

Post by imiric »

nchmy wrote: post #66
imiric wrote: post #58

Datastar is one of the few projects in the web ecosystem in years that feels like a paradigm shift for the better. The author (Delaney Gillilan) has put a lot of thought into how modern web development should be done from first principles, while leveraging core web technologies like SSE, and eschewing complexity as much as possible. His proposed GoNaDs stack[1] enables some truly impressive web applications. I highly…

I was just commenting to someone yesterday how it's a testament to how refined this is that he's been working hard for over 2 years to produce such a small amount of code. I can only imagine how many variations he's gone through in order to get to what we see today - a refined, simple, easy, powerful way to do SSR-driven declarative interactivity, etc And if that isn't enough, he's also on the cusp on releasing a web…

> it's a testament to how refined this is that he's been working hard for over 2 years to produce such a small amount of code.

In the words of some famous people:

> Simplicity is a great virtue but it requires hard work to achieve it and education to appreciate it. And to make matters worse: complexity sells better.

> Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

I think Delaney definitely follows these principles, which is refreshing to see in modern web development. The author of htmx, Carson Gross, also deserves a mention.

> And if that isn't enough, he's also on the cusp on releasing a web component framework that puts Lit to shame, AND a css framework that looks equally impressive.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. I'll keep an eye out for those. I see they're also opposed to Tailwind, which is an absolute abomination IMO. I don't have experience with Lit, but it seemed like a nice abstraction over core Web Components, which feel like a half-baked solution.

Ideally, I want these things to be part of core web technologies, and for web developers to not need to rely on 3rd-party frameworks. Web browsers should be better. Web servers should be better. The entire web development and user experience should be simpler, more secure, robust, etc. But given that large corporations dictate what that experience is like, I'm glad that we have fresh thinking from people who are not already engrained in this system. While the ecosystem catches up, I would use anything they produce, or build my own[1], over using established and popular technologies any day of the week.

[1]: https://github.com/hackfixme/miu

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#112

Post by nchmy »

Blahagun wrote: post #16

Oh great, yet another front-end framework, but this one is with paid features as well. Are we seriously going to pretend this isn't getting out of hand?

they're a 501c3 non profit and they actively dissuade people from buying the pro license, because YAGNI. If you want those features, or just want to support a genuinely innovative framework that people spent years building, you can get the license. Its not that expensive and is a one-time purchase.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#114

Post by afavour »

nchmy wrote: post #110
afavour wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with “most”. 99% of the sites featured on HN do just fine. OP is a talented developer that wrote a backend capable of surviving a ton of traffic. Other developers on the internet have written backends that cannot sustain a ton of traffic. The choice of frontend framework is separate from both. You can write a performant web app that uses React. I’m sure you can write one that falls over immediately with Da…

That's a fair point. But I think that the real point that /u/andersmurphy was trying to convey was that hypermedia is VERY performant because immensely talented C++ engineers have optimized precisely this, for decades. The notion that "frontend" devs have that the DOM can and must be managed via JS is simply ridiculous, and is one of the primary things that datastar and hypermedia approaches in general are trying to…

> The notion that "frontend" devs have that the DOM can and must be managed via JS is simply ridiculous

The idea that UI state should be managed locally is ridiculous now?

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#115

Post by nchmy »

beardicus wrote: post #99
nchmy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're completely comfortable with and unapologetic about the model. And they're not hiding anything.

i went looking for pricing info and it's the last item in the last menu on the website... it's not exactly up front. i was looking for a "pricing" top-level menu item first, which is pretty standard nowadays.

As ive said in many other comments - YOU DO NOT NEED PRO. The devs are very adamant about this - even aggressively so. 99% of apps will work just fine with the free library. Pro is for some bells and whistles, or just to support people who have invested many thousands of hours into making a genuinely innovative framework, and given it away

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#116

Post by porridgeraisin »

mbvisti wrote: post #89
foofoo12 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> exploring models This model of using deception to hide costs isn't exactly "exploring". It's tried and tested.

you're stretching the definition of deception here my guy-what do you want them to do? plaster a big sign on the landing page stating that this framework ALSO contains pro features that you have to pay for?

> plaster a big sign

Yes!! That's table stakes. It's the bare minimum needed to not be considered malice.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#117

Post by simonw »

nchmy wrote: post #78
imiric wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think this is the most sustainable approach for monetizing open source projects, as long as the developer is fair about it. That is, truly make features that only large and/or enterprise users would have a use for, and only charge for those, instead of arbitrarily deciding to put core features of the software behind a paywall. In the case of a web framework, that choice is a bit difficult. But if the software is…

This is exactly what is done here. They're emphatic that most will/should never need the pro features.

Looking at https://data-star.dev/reference/datastar_pro#pro-features the features that stood out for me as things I would want to to use (and that don't feel particularly "pro" to me) are the animation features, data-replace-url, data-on-resize, data-scroll-into-view, the @clipboard() mechanism and, most importantly, the debugging tool.

My problem with this business model is that it has a chilling effect on open source contributions to the project, because it incentivizes the core maintainers to not accept community contributions that overlap with the paid features.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#118

Post by nchmy »

afavour wrote: post #114
nchmy wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair point. But I think that the real point that /u/andersmurphy was trying to convey was that hypermedia is VERY performant because immensely talented C++ engineers have optimized precisely this, for decades. The notion that "frontend" devs have that the DOM can and must be managed via JS is simply ridiculous, and is one of the primary things that datastar and hypermedia approaches in general are trying to…

> The notion that "frontend" devs have that the DOM can and must be managed via JS is simply ridiculous The idea that UI state should be managed locally is ridiculous now?

Its interesting, and telling, that that's the only part of my comment that you replied to...

Anyway, browsers are built specifically to render HTML. And html/hypermedia is specifically meant to manage and transfer state. The web has lost its way. If you want to read more about this, this free book is a great start: https://hypermedia.systems/book/contents/

Or the essays at HTMX https://htmx.org/essays/

Good luck to you

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#119

Post by Baguette5242 »

bradly wrote: post #9

It isn't mentioned on the homepage, but Datastar does charge for the following features: data-animate - Animates element attributes over time. data-custom-validity - Adds custom validity to an element. data-on-raf - Runs an expression on every animation frame. data-on-resize - Runs an expression on element resize. data-persist - Persists signals in local storage. data-query-string - Syncs query string params with sig…

I tried Datastar and it was great, then I saw this kind of move and it turned me down immediately.

I don't believe it is the right way to play. A Pro support would have been better. Plus the fact that the licensing prevent to use the Datastar Pro in any kind of open-source project. Very strange move.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#120

Post by markusw »

imiric wrote: post #58

Datastar is one of the few projects in the web ecosystem in years that feels like a paradigm shift for the better. The author (Delaney Gillilan) has put a lot of thought into how modern web development should be done from first principles, while leveraging core web technologies like SSE, and eschewing complexity as much as possible. His proposed GoNaDs stack[1] enables some truly impressive web applications. I highly…

Thank you for sharing the youtube links in particular! It's nice to get some background info and intent for interesting libraries.
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