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Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#111

Post by anonu »

bee_rider wrote: post #103

IMO it would be better for the government to keep this sort of general library content on a url that doesn’t contain NIH. They have the disclaimer, > As a library, NLM provides access to scientific literature. Inclusion in an NLM database does not imply endorsement of, or agreement with, the contents by NLM or the National Institutes of Health. Anyway, it seems like an interesting collection of anecdotes that would b…

> keep this sort of general library content on a url that doesn’t contain NIH.

Why? The author makes it clear its purely anecdotal. Someone might come across this and decide to do a further, more scientific study. I would argue that this is valuable content that could lead to better insights on our sleep. Not having it on the NIH website would make it less likely to be viewed.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#112

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

bee_rider wrote: post #103

IMO it would be better for the government to keep this sort of general library content on a url that doesn’t contain NIH. They have the disclaimer, > As a library, NLM provides access to scientific literature. Inclusion in an NLM database does not imply endorsement of, or agreement with, the contents by NLM or the National Institutes of Health. Anyway, it seems like an interesting collection of anecdotes that would b…

Totally agreed. I also liked some of the anecdotes in this article, but I always have to do an eye roll when I read an article that claims that "primitive" cultures don't suffer from disease X, and look they do thing Y that modern cultures don't, so of course thing Y must be the the reason for the difference! Conveniently ignoring the 6387 other stark differences in culture, behaviors and diets between the cultures.

I think the hypothesis of how sleeping positions affect back pain would be worth studying, but that's all it is, a hypothesis.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#113

Post by onetimeuse92304 »

nightowl_games wrote: post #89
onetimeuse92304 wrote: post #62

For my entire life I slept in one of those postures ("the lookout"). I had a bunch of problems (pain in the chest, pain in the back, some problems with my knees not loaded symmetrically, my feet getting "extended" for quite a long time causing problems with Achilles). I also had a problem with restlessness -- these positions cannot be maintained for long without moving, I would be changing my position very frequently…

Pillow or no pillow? Hard mattress? No mattress?

I use a very thin pillow when sleeping on my back. I find sleeping without pillow a bit uncomfortable. Although I am sure I could get used to my head being pushed back a bit, I still dislike the head just resting on the hard mattress and trying to naturally roll left/right. The pillow helps me keep my head looking straight ahead (almost vertically).

As to mattress, I prefer a mid-to-hard latex mattress with a cover.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#114

Post by jacobolus »

looping8 wrote: post #14
FredrikMeyer wrote: post #7

I find this article quite insubstantial. He lists alternative sleeping positions, but no sources backing up the claim that "western sleeping positions" (whatever that is) are worse. Also only one citation, and that is to back up the claim that there are 200 primates. Nice pictures though - I feel happy that I can sit (relatively) comfortably in the squatting position (as an European).

It also feels a little strange in writing. Examples: "Figure Figure11 shows a mountain gorilla lying on the ground on his side without a pillow" - Of course it is without a pillow, it's a mountain gorilla! What is this clarification? "To start with, some Westerners have to hold on to a doorframe." - Would it not be better to say "you may have to hold on" or "newbies"? It is not like Westerners have some special physi…

> It is not like Westerners have some special physiological feature that makes them do it, it's about lack of practice.

Lack of practice causes a "special physiological feature": ankle inflexibility. For some people it would take a significant amount of time stretching the ankles every day to recover enough ankle flexibility to squat, and that could perhaps still be insufficient, as joint mobility is established based on the range of motion used in childhood.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#115

Post by anonu »

I will be trying more of these suggested positions. Coincidentally, I had a 5 degree wedge under my mattress to lift my head up slightly to reduce snoring. This resulted in increased lower back pain. Removing it reduced this lower back pain substantially.

In some sense, the vertical use of our vertebrae is a design anti-pattern. We evolved from animals that walked on all fours, and vertebrae are much better suited for this horizontal position. This is why we suffer from slipped discs and other ailments that are not common in other animals.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#116

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

anonu wrote: post #111
bee_rider wrote: post #103

IMO it would be better for the government to keep this sort of general library content on a url that doesn’t contain NIH. They have the disclaimer, > As a library, NLM provides access to scientific literature. Inclusion in an NLM database does not imply endorsement of, or agreement with, the contents by NLM or the National Institutes of Health. Anyway, it seems like an interesting collection of anecdotes that would b…

> keep this sort of general library content on a url that doesn’t contain NIH. Why? The author makes it clear its purely anecdotal. Someone might come across this and decide to do a further, more scientific study. I would argue that this is valuable content that could lead to better insights on our sleep. Not having it on the NIH website would make it less likely to be viewed.

Because inclusion on the NIH website, in the same general format as peer-reviewed articles are given, can give it the aura of being promoted or at least vetted by NIH, even with the disclaimer.

If you look through Snopes there are tons of examples of hoaxes and false gossip that end up spreading because they are found on an "official" website (or official-looking website), even if that official website is just a library where anyone can publish.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#117

Post by [deleted] »

adrian_b wrote: post #31
looping8 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also feels a little strange in writing. Examples: "Figure Figure11 shows a mountain gorilla lying on the ground on his side without a pillow" - Of course it is without a pillow, it's a mountain gorilla! What is this clarification? "To start with, some Westerners have to hold on to a doorframe." - Would it not be better to say "you may have to hold on" or "newbies"? It is not like Westerners have some special physi…

I have read your comment before reading the article, and at that time I have thought that you must be right. Nevertheless, after reading the article I have seen that the clarification about the gorilla sleeping without a pillow made perfect sense in its context, because it has not been added to provide any additional information, but it was added for emphasis, in a context where the sleeping positions in modern envir…

[deleted]

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#118

Post by radlad »

onetimeuse92304 wrote: post #113
nightowl_games wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pillow or no pillow? Hard mattress? No mattress?

I use a very thin pillow when sleeping on my back. I find sleeping without pillow a bit uncomfortable. Although I am sure I could get used to my head being pushed back a bit, I still dislike the head just resting on the hard mattress and trying to naturally roll left/right. The pillow helps me keep my head looking straight ahead (almost vertically). As to mattress, I prefer a mid-to-hard latex mattress with a cover.

In the article, the lookout position involves the lack of a pillow. One can imagine that the additional height of the pillow would cause you to raise your head, lower your chest, and arch your back, potentially causing the issues you reported.

That being said, this is an article of anecdotal observations by a physiotherapist - it is not the result of any kind of study.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#119

Post by colloydi »

More than a few middle-aged westerners would find it impossible to sleep with bent knees owing to a high prevalance of artherosclerosis (I think).

Also one of the great pleasures of life is turning over in bed repeatedly during a lie-in. Don't know whether it's to do with lymph circulation and/or detoxifying the brain. More investigation needed!

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