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Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#31

Post by adrian_b »

looping8 wrote: post #14
FredrikMeyer wrote: post #7

I find this article quite insubstantial. He lists alternative sleeping positions, but no sources backing up the claim that "western sleeping positions" (whatever that is) are worse. Also only one citation, and that is to back up the claim that there are 200 primates. Nice pictures though - I feel happy that I can sit (relatively) comfortably in the squatting position (as an European).

It also feels a little strange in writing. Examples: "Figure Figure11 shows a mountain gorilla lying on the ground on his side without a pillow" - Of course it is without a pillow, it's a mountain gorilla! What is this clarification? "To start with, some Westerners have to hold on to a doorframe." - Would it not be better to say "you may have to hold on" or "newbies"? It is not like Westerners have some special physi…

I have read your comment before reading the article, and at that time I have thought that you must be right.

Nevertheless, after reading the article I have seen that the clarification about the gorilla sleeping without a pillow made perfect sense in its context, because it has not been added to provide any additional information, but it was added for emphasis, in a context where the sleeping positions in modern environments were contrasted with their correspondents that are common both in non-modernized environments and for similar primates.

Moreover, I interpret his phrase "To start with" as having the same meaning as your suggestion "newbies".

Using a door frame in the beginning is indeed good practical advice for achieving the full squat position for those who are not used to it.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#32

Post by NalNezumi »

RamblingCTO wrote: post #23
NalNezumi wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to outright dismiss it because it is not a systematic/empirical study (and the author explicitly mention that). In the case of posture, stretching & training I think there's several exercises out there that doesn't have a rigorous empirical study to back it up, yet can be explained to be good/bad from our anatomical understanding of the human body.

> I don't think it's fair to outright dismiss it because it is not a systematic/empirical study That's how science works. Show sources/data/experiments or gtfo

That's how some steps of the science work, specifically the empirical studies. Empirical validation, falsifiability, and repeatability is all in that ball-park. But it's a part of the process and not all of it.

If that's the only thing you want to consider, sure. As a layman it's probably a good principle, and more so in engineering. But you'll have to shave off some significant works of science from history if you do that.

You can read more about those steps at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#33

Post by mo_42 »

RamblingCTO wrote: post #23
NalNezumi wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to outright dismiss it because it is not a systematic/empirical study (and the author explicitly mention that). In the case of posture, stretching & training I think there's several exercises out there that doesn't have a rigorous empirical study to back it up, yet can be explained to be good/bad from our anatomical understanding of the human body.

> I don't think it's fair to outright dismiss it because it is not a systematic/empirical study That's how science works. Show sources/data/experiments or gtfo

Einstein and Higgs predicted phenomena that were tested years resp. decades after their publication.

A theory is also a contribution to a field as long as it tested (not necessarily in the same publication).

Even an observation to a field can be a contribution if it helps people generate new theories and then test them.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#34

Post by boffinAudio »

awongh wrote: post #24

It’s crazy to think about how little we actually know about how the human body functions- not even to say what an “optimal” sleep position might be, but even a high quality study on how different sleep positions might affect the physiology of the body. I have yet to find any real serious scientific analysis of this.

The Soviets tried, but we didn't want to hear what they had to say:

https://bldgblog.com/2007/02/sleep-labs-of-the-soviet-empire...

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#35

Post by taneq »

flurb wrote: post #5

When I was 16, I inherited a bit of money. Not a large sum at all, but enough so that I could afford a new bed, a bookshelf and some nick-nacks from my local furniture store. Being 16, I didn't exactly put much thought into how kind my new mattress would be to my back down the line, and so I managed to find the firmest mattress known to man. At first, it was hard to sleep on, but I'm lazy, and so I kept it. That was…

This sounds easy to a/b test. Just sleep on the floor for a month, then your squishy mattress for a month, and document everything. (A month is just a guess, one or two weeks seems like transitional effects would dominate, hopefully after that you'd see more of the ongoing effects?)

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#36

Post by safety1st »

twowatches wrote: post #19

I'm fairly sure the cause of back pain is sitting at desks, not the position I'm sleeping in.

I'm skeptical that there's anything especially unhealthy about sitting at a desk even for long periods of time. What's more plausible to me is that back pain comes from having a weak back and it's more about what you're not doing, which is training your back muscles. Over the course of about a year, weight lifting eliminated a range of aches and pains I'd developed throughout adulthood, including back, wrist and knee pain. For the back it's all about deadlifts. In hindsight it seems obvious, all the muscles supporting my spine are visibly larger and demonstrably more powerful, carrying my body around is a much easier job for them now. Sinking into a padded chair after a few big lifts also feels fantastic and now feels like a perk of my job lol

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#37

Post by ricardobeat »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #17
NalNezumi wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to outright dismiss it because it is not a systematic/empirical study (and the author explicitly mention that). In the case of posture, stretching & training I think there's several exercises out there that doesn't have a rigorous empirical study to back it up, yet can be explained to be good/bad from our anatomical understanding of the human body.

Well, unfortunately in this article there are claims that can be explained to be completely false from our anatomical understanding of the human body - such as the idea that it is impossible to snore with your mouth closed.

I thought the 'impossible to snore' note was because of the downwards spine position, where the soft palate cannot collapse. Not because the mouth is closed.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#38

Post by lukan »

awongh wrote: post #24

It’s crazy to think about how little we actually know about how the human body functions- not even to say what an “optimal” sleep position might be, but even a high quality study on how different sleep positions might affect the physiology of the body. I have yet to find any real serious scientific analysis of this.

"not even to say what an “optimal” sleep position might be"

As with most things, maybe there isn't one optimal solution,as otherwise we all would have found out about it, by now and all use it?

Human bodies and minds are quite different.

So what is comfortable to one person might not work for the next person. Maybe people have pain in the back or in the neck, forcing them into other positions. People with stomach problems rather lie on their stomach. Some people people sleep alone, others together.

I know my sleeping position varies a lot and there is no single best one for me.

Re: Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures (2000)

#39

Post by contrarian1234 »

I love sleeping in the "lookout posture". I get very restful sleep. However after a couple of days it leads to a lot of pain in my back. I'm guessing some tendons get overstretched. No idea how to work around it though

I should try the reverse with the elbow outward. Seems doable. The Tibetan kneel seems a big too hardcore though :)

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