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Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

nytimes.com

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Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#111

Post by acdha »

MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #70
MBCook wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is loaded. It means a critical safety issue has been found by the government and they’re forcing it to be fixed. That comes with various timeline and notification requirements. That’s all it means. Whether or not you have to drive to a specific building to get it done is not and never has been a requirement of the recall process. That’s just how automakers have done it, mostly out of lack of OTA and unwillingness…

Words matter. "Recall" had a very specific meaning in the past before OTA updates: your vehicle was recalled to the dealership to be retrofitted for safety reasons, which is obviously very inconvenient for the owner of the vehicle. These OTA "recalls" are safety issues too, but the wording still implies the inconvenience of dropping your car off to be altered by a mechanic, which is not the case . New terminology wou…

Contact your congressional representatives and let them know that you feel strongly about this word. The NHTSA has been delegated authority to ensure the safety of the American vehicle fleet and the official name for the process where a manufacturer makes sure they notify every purchaser that a defect needs to be corrected uses that term.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#112

Post by trust_bt_verify »

syngrog66 wrote: post #71

in other news the world's 50 billion-ish Linux, Windows and Apple devices have also all been "recalled" hundreds of times in the last few years alone

Regulators forced them to update their product to mitigate a safety issue that was found? Or maybe you are misunderstanding the correct usage of ‘recall’ in the article and are applying it incorrectly to other situations.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#113

Post by acdha »

NickM wrote: post #96
nickthegreek wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The headline is perfectly clear and is not using language in a new way. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issues recalls for safety related issues. The way the manufacture resolves the issues can differ.

Sure, you're technically correct, but when the average person reads "recall" they typically assume something very different. Doubly so since this isn't even a bug fix, just a new requirement to add additional safety checks above and beyond the ones already there. There's no reason the headline couldn't have read something like "Tesla Issues Software Update at Request of NHTSA", which would be less likely to confuse t…

The average person understands “recall” to mean “something about my car may be unsafe, I should read it”. If you’ve owned a car, you’ve gotten plenty of these and many of them are minor - for example, when I lived in San Diego I did not race to the dealership when Subaru put out a recall telling you to have the underbody inspected for defects which could cause elevated corrosion with frequent exposure to road salt because I knew my vehicle didn’t fall into that category. The recall mechanism meant I got it taken care of a year later when I had other work being done.

The only people claiming to be confused here appear to be Tesla fans who are reacting emotionally to their favorite company getting negative attention. I see no sign that any of them were concerned about a standard industry term before today.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#114

Post by acdha »

brandonagr2 wrote: post #30
solardev wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. Tesla has a long history of being dishonest about Autopilot capabilities and dangers, and it's killed several people so far. The NHTSA is forcing them to make some tweaks. (Not arguing that autopilot is on the whole any more or less safe than human drivers. Just that Tesla has a history of misrepresentation.)

It is a regular OTA update. Negligent drivers have killed people, not autopilot capabilities. Take the example in the recent Washington Post article where a driver ran through a stop sign at a T intersection, left the road, and killed a bystander. What the article didn't say is that the system reduced cruise set point to 45 mph due to the road type, but the driver was _holding down the accelerator pedal_ to maintain…

> What the article didn't say is that the system reduced cruise set point to 45 mph due to the road type, but the driver was _holding down the accelerator pedal_ to maintain 60 mph as it flew through the stop sign. The driver admitted they knew they were responsible for the controlling the car.

Do you have a source for that claim? The earlier news coverage said that the driver set the speed to 44mph, and that the data was unclear whether the autopilot or driver accelerated. If you have something like a court document that would be great to clarify.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#115

Post by acdha »

electrondood wrote: post #51
itsoktocry wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and then this term will no longer be usable for clickbait article titles. It's not clickbait, that's ridiculous. The essence of the article is the results of the investigation. NHSTA has a process, they investigated and issued a recall. The fact that it can be fixed OTA doesn't change the intent of what's happening. I mean, at what point does the first comment stop being, "It's not a recall!" Who cares. I'm more in…

It is clickbait. Tesla hasn't "recalled" 2M vehicles, they're pushing a software patch. "Recall" is specifically jargon. It's a regulatory action. However (and this is precisely why this headline is clickbait) it has an alternate, more common meaning to the general population, which is "your car has a defective part, is unreliable, and needs to be brought in to have that part replaced." This is a "recall" the same wa…

You not being aware of the use of the term doesn’t mean it’s clickbait. All a recall means is that the NHTSA is using its legal authority to have Tesla ensure that all vehicles with a safety concern are fixed. If Tesla can ship an update that easily, they can send the NHTSA a report showing each VIN having been verified as having the right firmware version.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#116

Post by LoganDark »

strofcon wrote: post #106
LoganDark wrote: post #103

Updates, not recalls. A software update shouldn't be called a recall.

It should when it's required by the NHTSA and comes along with mandatory reporting, notification, and deadline obligations, along with optional free on-site execution of the fix. That's what makes it a recall. A software update is the mechanism, the recall is the "Tesla did something wrong and is being held accountable" part.

I'm not saying it shouldn't count as a recall, but for the consumer it's just an update.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#117

Post by sidcool »

ahahahahah wrote: post #97
vorticalbox wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? I don't see android "recalling" android devices every update.

Yes, it is. A recall is about the fact that there are unsafe devices, not about how they get fixed. > A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards

Yeah, technically it is called a recall because of NHTSA's terminology. But it's not a recall in traditional sense. It's an OTA, where customer's cars don't have to be physically recalled.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#118

Post by thejazzman »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #88
MBCook wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is loaded. It means a critical safety issue has been found by the government and they’re forcing it to be fixed. That comes with various timeline and notification requirements. That’s all it means. Whether or not you have to drive to a specific building to get it done is not and never has been a requirement of the recall process. That’s just how automakers have done it, mostly out of lack of OTA and unwillingness…

It means a critical safety issue has been found by the government and they’re forcing it to be fixed. Manufacturers can initiate recalls, they aren't always, or mostly, issues found by the NHTSA. They are required to report them to the NHTSA who track and monitor them. I wouldn't say they are necessarily "critical" either. Here is the list of recalls for a 2005 Toyota Camry, for example. https://www.autosafety.org/ve…

In reality, it's like someone being given the opportunity to retire before being fired. It's a polite chance to take ownership rather than it being forced. Apparently Tesla has to be forced.

As an owner with Auto Pilot I don't know how to feel. It's most likely just going to make the product more annoying / less useful rather than inherently safer.

I mean, you can't install radar through an OTA, so... :(

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#119

Post by filoleg »

cush wrote: post #34
filoleg wrote: post #2

Note: “tesla recalls” == “tesla pushes OTA software update (just like any regular OTA update)”

Just because a manufacturer applies a fix OTA doesn’t make it not a recall. Recall is just a term. Regulators issue the recall. How the manufacturer performs the fix can vary.

Yes, I am aware. I have no issues with using the word “recall” for this either, as long as it is clarified that it is resolved through OTA and doesn’t require a drive to a dealership.

And that’s because most people have no idea that recalls resolved trough OTA are even a thing. Makes sense to me that a lot of people wouldn’t be aware, since OTA updates aren’t entirely common in cars yet.

As for “why”, since “it is still a recall, the only difference is how it is addressed”? Because to an actual person dealing with a recall, it makes a significant difference whether they gotta drive somewhere and leave their car there to get fixed vs. their car autoupdating OTA overnight while the car is parked safely at home.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#120

Post by sentientslug »

LoganDark wrote: post #116
strofcon wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should when it's required by the NHTSA and comes along with mandatory reporting, notification, and deadline obligations, along with optional free on-site execution of the fix. That's what makes it a recall. A software update is the mechanism, the recall is the "Tesla did something wrong and is being held accountable" part.

I'm not saying it shouldn't count as a recall, but for the consumer it's just an update.

I'm not sure there is a need for a distinction here, legally it is considered a recall whether or not it can be resolved with an update.
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