Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#111

Post by denton-scratch » Thu, May 04, 2023, 8:55 PM UTC

sjc02060 wrote: post #92

xupybd wrote: post #88

My father was a mental health social worker. He worked with youths, mainly teens. In his experience the vast majority of teens that ended up in his hospital had some drug fueled episode that led to their mental health crisis. He told me that he didn't think the drugs caused the mental illness but we're often the trigger. That is these kids already had a mental illness that had not started to present symptoms until it…

Is that to assume these kids would've got mentally ill anyway, just later down the line?

That might be what parent is assuming. My view is that (a) they're already mentally ill; and (b) the psychedelic can trigger severe episodes that wouldn't otherwise have happened.

I don't know how cannabis works for people with bipolar. Laing used to interpret all psychotic disorders as the same thing. I'm not sure that's right. It seems to me that the different types of bipolar are suffficiently distinct that it's unsafe to declare them variants of the same condition. And I'm pretty sure they're not on a continuum with schizophrenia.

I don't know; I'm neither a doctor nor a therapist. It's just that a surprising proportion of the people I've known well have turned out to have some kind of psychotic disorder. Perhaps they're attracted to me, or me to them. Either way, perhaps I could be used as a kind of diagnostic sign.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#112

Post by progmetaldev » Thu, May 04, 2023, 8:56 PM UTC

xupybd wrote: post #88

My father was a mental health social worker. He worked with youths, mainly teens. In his experience the vast majority of teens that ended up in his hospital had some drug fueled episode that led to their mental health crisis. He told me that he didn't think the drugs caused the mental illness but we're often the trigger. That is these kids already had a mental illness that had not started to present symptoms until it…

I'm very much for individual freedom when it comes to drug use, assuming you aren't hurting others. I think in the push for cannabis legalization, many people have forgotten that cannabis is a psychedelic drug. While it's not the same as LSD or psilocybin, it can definitely change perception and thinking. In 1996 I had a psychotic episode from LSD, and developed generalized anxiety disorder and panic disorder. I always had a bit of anxiety, but it exacerbated the problem. Cannabis can trigger a bad panic attack for me, dependent on the strength and strain (probably more likely the different cannabinoids present). Cannabis can also make me very calm and give my mind a kind of "reset" that helps to destress and allows me to reflect on my current anxiety. I firmly believe that psychedelics are triggers and not the cause of mental disorders. As has been commonly said, set and setting are large contributing factors, even for cannabis use.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#113

Post by emsy » Thu, May 04, 2023, 9:00 PM UTC

xupybd wrote: post #88

My father was a mental health social worker. He worked with youths, mainly teens. In his experience the vast majority of teens that ended up in his hospital had some drug fueled episode that led to their mental health crisis. He told me that he didn't think the drugs caused the mental illness but we're often the trigger. That is these kids already had a mental illness that had not started to present symptoms until it…

At least for schizophrenia, the data backs it up. The rates are unbelivebly stable, regardless of drug use (which varies much more per country or over time than the rates of schizophrenia).

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#114

Post by hirvi74 » Thu, May 04, 2023, 9:02 PM UTC

iamnotsure wrote: post #61

Frequent mouse button clicks increase software hangs in desktop environments, study finds. (MJ is an ancient medicine, it can't and won't cause any disease; proper use is a remedy for many)

> it can't and won't cause any disease;

I suppose Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome does not count? I love the plant probably more than most, but like most things -- it has it's good parts and it's parts.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#115

Post by motohagiography » Thu, May 04, 2023, 9:04 PM UTC

I would wonder what schizophrenia means, as I often joke that some of the insanely potent cannabis for sale at two-shops-on-every-block in Canada is basically recreational schizophrenia. It absolutely affects the quality of peoples reasoning and creates hallucinatory associations and beliefs, if only temporarily. I also feel like the only person who apprecaites how funny it is that a government that legalized smoking unlimited amounts of pot had to pass consequent legislation to fight the propagation of conspiracy theories.

The mental health aspect of this is very serious though. I've seen some real burnout and moreso, social withdrawal. In Canada, we're sounding this all out in real time, and some days the drugs seem like palliative care for an old culture and society whose end is being hastened.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#116

Post by denton-scratch » Thu, May 04, 2023, 9:04 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #70

elliekelly wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious how we could ever reasonably parse cause and effect here? I think it’s possible smoking a lot of marijuana triggers something in certain people that causes schizophrenia but I also think it’s possible that people in the early stages of schizophrenia might seek out marijuana as a way of self-soothing. Or maybe it could even be a bit of both?

FTA: "For example, in Denmark, the incidence of schizophrenia steadily increased from 2000 to 2012 (Kühl, Laursen, Thorup, & Nordentoft, Reference Kühl, Laursen, Thorup and Nordentoft2016), and the schizophrenia population attributable risk fraction (PARF) for CUD increased three- to fourfold over the past two decades, parallel to increases in THC concentration (Hjorthøj, Posselt, & Nordentoft, Reference Hjorthøj, Po…

> The explanation "increased THC content causes more schizophrenia" is clearly more plausible than "more schizophrenia causes increased THC content".

My understanding is that the ratio of THC to CBD is significant; CBD seems to protect against some of the more alarming effects of THC.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#117

Post by MrFantastic » Thu, May 04, 2023, 9:04 PM UTC

matthewbauer wrote: post #46

mikhmha wrote: post #5

I really recommend people interested in Schizophrenia to read the book “Hidden Valley Road”. I saw it recommended in a HN comment previously. The book follows an American family who gave birth to 12 children, 6 of whom were later diagnosed with schizophrenia in their teens. It’s interesting because the book gives lots of insight into the historical to modern research on the condition. In the past psychologists though…

Interestingly, schizophrenia is really rare in accounts before the 1800s. It appears to be a modern disease, which would make it seem like it would be environmental. Another interesting thing about schizophrenia is it's much more common in cities, even after controlling for drug use and ethnicity[1]. Which again makes it seem like something that was rare in the past. [1]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-b…

The concept of Demonic Possession has existed since antiquity.

They probably had some sort of mental health disorder. Schizophrenia seems to have similar symptoms.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#118

Post by progmetaldev » Thu, May 04, 2023, 9:06 PM UTC

matthewbauer wrote: post #46

mikhmha wrote: post #5

I really recommend people interested in Schizophrenia to read the book “Hidden Valley Road”. I saw it recommended in a HN comment previously. The book follows an American family who gave birth to 12 children, 6 of whom were later diagnosed with schizophrenia in their teens. It’s interesting because the book gives lots of insight into the historical to modern research on the condition. In the past psychologists though…

Interestingly, schizophrenia is really rare in accounts before the 1800s. It appears to be a modern disease, which would make it seem like it would be environmental. Another interesting thing about schizophrenia is it's much more common in cities, even after controlling for drug use and ethnicity[1]. Which again makes it seem like something that was rare in the past. [1]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-b…

Possibly a disconnect from nature does something to trigger the condition. Cities are more man-made and artificial than being close to the wilderness. I don't know if that's the correlation, but it seems like you see quite a few more paranoid and hallucination episodes from people in cities than rural areas (if we're taking out drug use).

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#119

Post by MrFantastic » Thu, May 04, 2023, 9:07 PM UTC

aatd86 wrote: post #40

mikhmha wrote: post #5

I really recommend people interested in Schizophrenia to read the book “Hidden Valley Road”. I saw it recommended in a HN comment previously. The book follows an American family who gave birth to 12 children, 6 of whom were later diagnosed with schizophrenia in their teens. It’s interesting because the book gives lots of insight into the historical to modern research on the condition. In the past psychologists though…

Genetic cause is often what is claimed of things that are not very well understood at all. Myopia being one of them for instance. (it's actually often an adaptation process that is actually found to be reversible) Wrt SZ, not only is it very badly understood but a lot of the symptoms can be attributed to biochemical disorders and that does not necessarily imply a genetic predisposition at all. Caffeine can induce psy…

Myopia is interesting. One theory I've heard is that it's because people aren't exposed to enough sunlight when their eyes are developed.

Myopia is almost non-existent in hunter gatherer societies.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#120

Post by progmetaldev » Thu, May 04, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

rajin444 wrote: post #35

mikhmha wrote: post #5

I really recommend people interested in Schizophrenia to read the book “Hidden Valley Road”. I saw it recommended in a HN comment previously. The book follows an American family who gave birth to 12 children, 6 of whom were later diagnosed with schizophrenia in their teens. It’s interesting because the book gives lots of insight into the historical to modern research on the condition. In the past psychologists though…

Did the study control for race then if genetics are a cause? ie other studies have shown those of ashkenazi descent are more likely to be schizophrenic. I hope this isn’t taken the wrong way - id very much like to know if my genetic ancestry made me more or less susceptible to things like schizophrenia.

It could be environmental imprinting on genetics from previous generations. Of the people that I am familiar with that developed schizophrenia, there is often something traumatic in their family's past, and it is not always the previous generation (but may be from 2 or 3 generations previous).