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What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

nytimes.com

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Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#111

Post by dang »

rapture-bepure wrote: post #91
ericdykstra wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, again, this is blank-slateism. People are born with genetic predispositions that influence things such as height, eye color, mathematical ability, and career preference. You would only expect population-proportionate outcomes if genetics played no role. Even if they only play a 10% role, you get vastly different outcomes.

No, again, this is your racism. What you are saying is that certain demographics are underrepresented because they have lesser abilities, while you discount a universe of other factors. The fact that you reach for "genetics" first and foremost is exactly equivalent to racism.

Personal attacks aren't ok here. We've banned this account. Please do not create accounts to break the site guidelines with, and please don't take HN threads further into flamewar hell.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#112

Post by afiori »

pvg wrote: post #94
Legogris wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a thing as the "token gaijin" at Japanese companies - the foreigner who can show to visitors how international company this is. Generally very little influence or path of progress. Also just the knowledge of this phenomenon can cause self-doubt for the individual. White people office workers Japan are of course not the same as black mathematicians in the U.S., but I don't believe that it's not contribut…

I just don't think 'my prejudices are actually true' is the conclusion to draw from 'tokenism exists', that is all.

you and me don't, but many do. It is a fact that affirmative action undermines the claim of competence of minorities in the workplace. It also a problem to be addressed. Whether or not it is right to think that has little influence of the fact that many people reach that conclusion.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#113

Post by lordnacho »

ousta wrote: post #14

I always struggle to see people victim of racism identify themselve only through their race. . “I have been the only one in most of the universities I’ve been to — the only student or faculty in the mathematics department.” “To say that I feel isolated,” I have always been different looking than other people around me and never identified myself through my race but through my interests and undertakings in life. I fin…

But this is not necessarily a matter of choice. If everyone else thinks race is a thing, you need to at least think about it, regardless of whether you believe in it too. I'd like to think the way you do ("my interests and undertakings in life"), and mostly I do, but if I find myself in a society where everyone has a label, I need to consider my label. To the point where it might make sense for me to have others with that label near me.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#114

Post by dang »

adriveatrain wrote: post #53
mLuby wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, doesn't the madness stop once the identity breakdown in a given field roughly matches the identity in the general population? If X% of people are Black, I would expect given no structural impediments that roughly X% of Mathematicians would also be Black. The how to get there in the quickest and fairest way is a political question.

Apply it to Olympic 100m runners

We've banned this account for using HN primarily for ideological battle.

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Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#115

Post by afiori »

tptacek wrote: post #104
stcredzero wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. I've read and listened to a number of accounts about how peers in poor neighborhoods are the biggest barrier to academic achievement. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. Or wor…

Hold on, let me catch up here: your poor-neighborhood peers tell you you're "sexually inadequate" and therefore you go on to not be a mathematician? Can you connect those dots for me?

They are really easy to connect. Ex addicts that keep addict friends do not fare that well. Peer pressure can push you up but can also pull you down, calling you to engage in self destructive behaviours when you are already having an hard time climbing to a better life.

https://quillette.com/2019/02/10/public-educations-dirty-sec...

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#116

Post by cc81 »

lotaezenwa wrote: post #64
cc81 wrote: post #58

I don't doubt that there absolutely exists prejudices in this case but I also wonder how many will also be created by one self in that situation just because how the human mind works. I used to have quite a lot of acne and it really got to my head. It of course did affect how people treated me, especially girls, because acne is not very attractive however after a while I probably read into things way more than I shou…

So you believe your experience with acne could be a lot like people experiencing racism?

I believe we all view the world through our own filter with our own interpretations and I believe that just because that we perceive something does not make it objectively right.

It does not matter if it is a big thing like racism or something small like how you look. It is also pretty disingenuous to immediately go to accusing me of saying that my experiences is as bad as racism, I never claimed that. Racism as a concept is big and it is obviously something that affects people deeply but it does not have a monopoly when it comes to suffering either.

One young white middle class boy in my school was bullied so badly that one night he hung himself from a soccer goal. I did not know him or the people who bullied him but I suspect that the things he was bullied for was not worse than racism as a whole but I also suspect what he experienced is far worse than any hurt any racism this mathematician has experienced.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#117

Post by willpiers »

dang wrote: post #101
willpiers wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why? I don't mind being downvoted, and I enjoy reading the responses. Is it infringing on peoples' safe spaces?

Because if you toss off a low-information provocation in an inflammatory thread, that's trolling whether you meant to or not. (But indulging in an in-your-face phrase like "safe spaces" makes me think that maybe you did mean to.) The result tends to be flamewar. Flamewars are equal parts dumb and predictable. Also, we're trying for this place not to turn into scorched earth.

really did not intend to troll in the first place - maybe a little in the second. I find the sensitivity level here a bit shocking. thanks for the response though - I'll take the feedback and add supporting info in the future.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#118

Post by iguy »

_bxg1 wrote: post #110
iguy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren't hobbies. Number theorists and topologists have minds that work in profoundly different ways. Talented 12-year-olds will like some kinds of problems much more than others. I think a great outreach goal would be to get them rooting for one team or the other -- to give them an identity within mathematics, in other words. I'm not suggesting we can eliminate all other subcultures at the stoke of a pen. But do…

> But do think they can grow or die in strength as a result of our actions. Are you suggesting it's desirable for them to die off? America is built on its diversity of subcultures. Just because there's some tension between them right now doesn't mean they're bad. These are growing pains. > I have more sympathy for the seeing-someone-like-yourself argument when talking about aspiring pop stars (or politicians) who nee…

Die down, not die off. The melting pot is a great idea, but Balkanization is a terrible one. I worry that the drift is toward the latter.

And, I'd support policies to actively discourage aspiring pop stars, of all flavors! But I do mean particularly mathematics here, who are several sigma off the middle of academia.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#119

Post by stcredzero »

tptacek wrote: post #104
stcredzero wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. I've read and listened to a number of accounts about how peers in poor neighborhoods are the biggest barrier to academic achievement. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. Or wor…

Hold on, let me catch up here: your poor-neighborhood peers tell you you're "sexually inadequate" and therefore you go on to not be a mathematician? Can you connect those dots for me?

Hold on, let me catch up here: your poor-neighborhood peers tell you you're "sexually inadequate"

No. My peers told me I was sexually inadequate and less than essentially human. This was also mixed up with my having been molested be a peer in high school. As a result, I was pretty much unable to have a relationship until my late 20's, and even so it was hard to sustain a relationship long term for many years beyond that. (I'm happily married now, however.)

Insults and gaslighting with regards to one's sexuality are a particularly potent psychological weapon, and from what I've seen both as a direct participant and as an observer, some people from poorer backgrounds will actively punish those who are demonstrating academic excellence, or who are cultivating themselves in some other fashion. Such people are likely just a small percentage of the general populace. However, if one "sticks out" then that small percentage tends to find you more easily.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#120

Post by tropo »

rudedogg wrote: post #88
lotaezenwa wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you believe your experience with acne could be a lot like people experiencing racism?

I feel like your comment is disingenuous. He's saying that we all feel slighted, and perhaps cases where minorities feel slighted, is just that. A case mentioned from the article that gave me this vibe: > “A couple of them were at a board writing something,” he recalled. “I went over and asked, ‘What are you guys working on?’” > “We’re too far in to catch you up,” he said he was told. I know personally, I used to fee…

Yep, and thinking about that some more, I have to wonder if he might be suffering from early/mild signs of schizophrenia. The assumption of racism is unjustified paranoia.

When schizophrenia starts, it is common to assume that people's actions are in some way plotting against you. A person does something for a reason unrelated to you (example: bumps you accidentally), and you assume it was intentional.

I recall that there is even an increased chance of illness for math experts. Famously, it hit John Nash.

So his interpretation of other people's actions may be a sign that he is not well.

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