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What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

nytimes.com

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Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#61

Post by joppy »

eruci wrote: post #5

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social…

I think “meritocratic competitive default mode” is not looking deep enough. Putting aside any instances of, for example, rich idiots getting admitted to universities just because they’re rich, there is still a massive problem with admitting people to universities based “on merit”. People growing up in lower socioeconomic backgrounds are going to have had a lower quality of education prior to applying for entrance to university, and most processes I’ve read about don’t really take this into account. As a result, comparing everyone equally across the same (for example) entrance exam means that you end up selecting for people from higher socio-economic backgrounds.

I don’t know a good solution to this, but I think it’s something that needs to not be forgotten when discussing “meritocracies”.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#62

Post by iguy »

kauffj wrote: post #34

> For the record, here is a small sample of other communities where black people are strongly underrepresented: > Runners (3%). Bikers (6%). Furries (2%). Wall Street senior management (2%). Occupy Wall Street protesters (unknown but low, one source says 1.6% but likely an underestimate). BDSM (unknown but low) Tea Party members (1%). American Buddhists (~2%). Bird watchers (4%). Environmentalists (various but univer…

I would bet that in almost every one of those categories, Americans of New England descent are over-represented compared to people of Christian Italian/German/Polish descent. (With the least money on the sporting ones.)

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#63

Post by _bxg1 »

iguy wrote: post #43
_bxg1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something to be said for representation. If you're a bright high-schooler with some interest in mathematics, but don't have a single mathematician to point to who shares your cultural background, it's much harder to visualize and manifest your goal. There's at least a partial self-sustaining mechanism to this sort of thing, which I think is the best argument for affirmative action.

But "shares your cultural background" is in large measure something we choose. Not necessarily as individuals, but as a society, in what we emphasise. Why can't "American" be the right cultural background, or better yet for math nerd kids, "mathematicians who are also musicians" (common), or "mathematicians who like drawing pictures" / "hate drawing pictures" (most depts have both)? Instead we choose always to emphas…

> Why can't "American" be the right cultural background, or better yet for math nerd kids, "mathematicians who are also musicians" (common), or "mathematicians who like drawing pictures" / "hate drawing pictures" (most depts have both)?

Because America consists of multiple strongly-cohesive subcultures that aren't as simple as "American", but go much deeper than hobbies. Of course there are no hard lines, but if we're being reasonable, we can see this to be generally true. It's human nature to compare yourself to those who are strongly similar to you, especially when those similarities take the form of life challenges having been faced.

> Instead we choose always to emphasise fault lines, and they are proliferating. How many years until it's important to hire enough openly gay (or muslim, or trans, or atheist!) mathematicians, for exactly the same reasoning?

Presumably this kind of "emphasis" will settle once things have balanced out - i.e., once diversity in a given field roughly matches diversity in the general population. In the meantime we skew our meritocracy a bit, but it should be a temporary situation.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#64

Post by lotaezenwa »

cc81 wrote: post #58

I don't doubt that there absolutely exists prejudices in this case but I also wonder how many will also be created by one self in that situation just because how the human mind works. I used to have quite a lot of acne and it really got to my head. It of course did affect how people treated me, especially girls, because acne is not very attractive however after a while I probably read into things way more than I shou…

So you believe your experience with acne could be a lot like people experiencing racism?

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#65

Post by stcredzero »

BookmarkSaver wrote: post #32
skh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming this is a genuine question on your part. I would suggest reading up on common stereotypes of the native peoples in the U.S. Native Americans did not design the road system in West Lafayette. Whites did. The person making the remark is in essence saying: Yes the road system is really fucked up. It's so bad that I can't give a real explanation for it so I jokingly say a drunk Indian had to have done it bec…

For some reason I assumed that it was referring to subcontinent Indians, and was slightly confused because I don't consider it racist to point out that their road system is absolutely atrocious.

My first thought was that it was a non-sequitur, but that it involved subcontinent Indians. I find it ironic that people who are apparently calling out one kind of bigotry in this thread are then playing on stereotypes of what people who live in certain places are like.

As a nonwhite who actually has been racially bashed and who has seen people overcome bigotry through their basic humanity, I always want to warn everyone that the problem isn't people from a particular place, people of a particular ethnicity, or people grouped by any surface characteristic, chosen, indelible or in between. The problem is groupthink, and the dark emotions that can come about because of it.

The moment you start imputing thoughts, feelings, and emotions to people with scant evidence, you have taken a misstep. (1) You have succumbed to groupthink. If you would fight bigotry, it first behooves you to actively eliminate your own bigotry. It's then your duty not to fall into the very patterns you're supposed to fight.

(1) -- Also, if you start condemning people because you imagine you know what they are thinking and feeling, and you believe they are lying to you, then you set up a situation where no one can prove their innocence, and no one trusts anyone else anymore. We have historical accounts of such times and places. Often, such epistemological catastrophes accompany inter-ethnic and inter-sectarian violence and atrocities.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#66

Post by graeme »

paulcole wrote: post #13
willpiers wrote: post #8

I fail to see how either of your anecdotes constitute racism

> Yeah, the road system here was designed by a drunk Indian What does including Indian add here? If the (alleged) drunk was white would the person have said, "drunk white guy"?

Native americans have high levels of alcoholism. The comment was referencing this as a contemptuous sterotype. A casual comment like that is a glimpse into widely held attitudes in the regional: the speaker felt comfortable saying it and assumed the listener wouldn't object.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_Native_Americans

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#67

Post by ericdykstra »

tptacek wrote: post #51
ericdykstra wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is baseless, unscientific blank-slateism, and isn't true anywhere in the world among any demographic segment in any measure. If 10% of Singaporean men are gay would you expect 10% of male plumbers in Singapore to be gay? If women are 30% of the workforce in Canada, would you expect Canadian dental assistants to be 70% male? Disparate outcomes doesn't imply unfair treatment.

No, that's true. They just suggest it.

No, again, this is blank-slateism. People are born with genetic predispositions that influence things such as height, eye color, mathematical ability, and career preference. You would only expect population-proportionate outcomes if genetics played no role. Even if they only play a 10% role, you get vastly different outcomes.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#68

Post by moorhosj »

umvi wrote: post #45
mLuby wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, doesn't the madness stop once the identity breakdown in a given field roughly matches the identity in the general population? If X% of people are Black, I would expect given no structural impediments that roughly X% of Mathematicians would also be Black. The how to get there in the quickest and fairest way is a political question.

> If X% of people are Black, I would expect given no structural impediments that roughly X% of Mathematicians would also be Black. So if Y% of people are White, would you expect given no structural impediments that roughly Y% of rappers/NBA players would also be White?

It's odd to compare two private industries (NBA and music) to education which is predominantly funded by the public.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#69

Post by afiori »

noobermin wrote: post #49
tyler- wrote: post #23

People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various ways. Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. That kid from a better off family that shows talent in m…

This I guess is exactly what I was thinking. As a legacy from segregation (and ultimately, slavery), African Americans still are disproportionately poor. This explains the macro-statistic, that only 1% of Math PhD's are given to African Americans. I don't doubt there is some personal bias that is at play too. As a PhD who isn't Black but isn't white or Asian, I face it too, but the personal challenges I face paled in…

From this point of view it would be interesting to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of race-based affirmative action and income-based affirmative action.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#70

Post by Legogris »

pvg wrote: post #47
avip wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also not helping that there actually is such a thing as "token X". A less discussed side effect of affirmative action.

I don't think that's the thing that's 'not helping', here.

There is such a thing as the "token gaijin" at Japanese companies - the foreigner who can show to visitors how international company this is. Generally very little influence or path of progress. Also just the knowledge of this phenomenon can cause self-doubt for the individual.

White people office workers Japan are of course not the same as black mathematicians in the U.S., but I don't believe that it's not contributing to the problem if it occurs.

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