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What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

nytimes.com

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Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#51

Post by tptacek »

ericdykstra wrote: post #48
mLuby wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, doesn't the madness stop once the identity breakdown in a given field roughly matches the identity in the general population? If X% of people are Black, I would expect given no structural impediments that roughly X% of Mathematicians would also be Black. The how to get there in the quickest and fairest way is a political question.

This is baseless, unscientific blank-slateism, and isn't true anywhere in the world among any demographic segment in any measure. If 10% of Singaporean men are gay would you expect 10% of male plumbers in Singapore to be gay? If women are 30% of the workforce in Canada, would you expect Canadian dental assistants to be 70% male? Disparate outcomes doesn't imply unfair treatment.

No, that's true. They just suggest it.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#52

Post by towaway1138 »

mLuby wrote: post #17
eruci wrote: post #5

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social…

I mean, doesn't the madness stop once the identity breakdown in a given field roughly matches the identity in the general population? If X% of people are Black, I would expect given no structural impediments that roughly X% of Mathematicians would also be Black. The how to get there in the quickest and fairest way is a political question.

As a statistician or economist, I would actually be quite shocked if the proportion was often close. This rarely or never happens in other fields, even ones where there is essentially no possibility of such supposed impediments. Randomness happens.

Instead of stealing someone's thunder by putting them on easy mode, give them the opportunity to kill it.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#53

Post by adriveatrain »

mLuby wrote: post #17
eruci wrote: post #5

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social…

I mean, doesn't the madness stop once the identity breakdown in a given field roughly matches the identity in the general population? If X% of people are Black, I would expect given no structural impediments that roughly X% of Mathematicians would also be Black. The how to get there in the quickest and fairest way is a political question.

Apply it to Olympic 100m runners

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#54

Post by thosakwe »

jellicle wrote: post #22
ml2019 wrote: post #4

> Dr. Goins’s colleagues at Purdue said his receipt of tenure and subsequent promotion to full professor signaled the university’s willingness to overlook a sparse research portfolio in light of his extraordinary work with undergraduates, as well as the summer programs he organized for minority students. > But Dr. Goins said he was looking for something else. “I just never really felt respected,” he said. It actually…

Commenter looks at a field that hires only white men, and excludes everyone else, and sees a meritocracy. If an single extremely competent, outstandingly-qualified black man is hired, it's because of his identity. Remarkable.

For GP, and for those in other comments who were confused about the phrase "token," this is it in a nutshell - having people doubt your accomplishments, and assume that the reason you're in a position is not because you're qualified, but because you have a specific identity.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#55

Post by adamnemecek »

tyler- wrote: post #23

People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various ways. Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. That kid from a better off family that shows talent in m…

> Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the time they completed high school.

Is this common?

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#56

Post by afiori »

jellicle wrote: post #22
ml2019 wrote: post #4

> Dr. Goins’s colleagues at Purdue said his receipt of tenure and subsequent promotion to full professor signaled the university’s willingness to overlook a sparse research portfolio in light of his extraordinary work with undergraduates, as well as the summer programs he organized for minority students. > But Dr. Goins said he was looking for something else. “I just never really felt respected,” he said. It actually…

Commenter looks at a field that hires only white men, and excludes everyone else, and sees a meritocracy. If an single extremely competent, outstandingly-qualified black man is hired, it's because of his identity. Remarkable.

In my country many university apply for European grants, one easy way to get more points is to include minorities in you research group, if by some chance you get a female immigrant african disabled student you are going to want to include her in every project you ever have.

The above commenter saw a place where from above there were incentives to hire minorities, it is not impossible to believe that at some point an administrator claimed "we need a diversity hire in the next 6 month" and they hired the only matching one.

Also the bigotry of low expectation is a real thing, where some people treat minorities as essentially stupid by default and then get magically surprised when they are normally competent.

I don't know if I agree with the commenter above, but the incentives of affirmative action and diversity hire are sometimes problematic.

(just for clarity, my personal opinion is to assume that everyone that got a job deserved it. Even if it is obviously false sometimes it is the most stable one, we should keep our culture in a place where that is a reasonable assumption)

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#57

Post by devnonymous »

eruci wrote: post #5

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social…

> Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race?

The point of the article, if you think about it, is this is exactly what is happening currently and needs to be stopped / reversed.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#58

Post by cc81 »

I don't doubt that there absolutely exists prejudices in this case but I also wonder how many will also be created by one self in that situation just because how the human mind works.

I used to have quite a lot of acne and it really got to my head. It of course did affect how people treated me, especially girls, because acne is not very attractive however after a while I probably read into things way more than I should. That people who were treating me the way they normally would or just happened to treat me badly because they had a bad day did treat me that way because of my acne.

Being the lone black guy in a research institution in a country like the US with that kind of history must be easy to start falling down that hole. Especially if there also exists people who are prejudiced or racist and expresses that as well.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#59

Post by afiori »

thosakwe wrote: post #54
jellicle wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commenter looks at a field that hires only white men, and excludes everyone else, and sees a meritocracy. If an single extremely competent, outstandingly-qualified black man is hired, it's because of his identity. Remarkable.

For GP, and for those in other comments who were confused about the phrase "token," this is it in a nutshell - having people doubt your accomplishments, and assume that the reason you're in a position is not because you're qualified, but because you have a specific identity.

there is another side; the one were companies actually hire people for numbers (I am not claiming they are common). for example in china there is a market of "white guy in suit walking around the office looking busy when visitors are present". I don't want to diminish your point as it is indeed a serious problem, but it is not the whole picture.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#60

Post by whyisthewhat »

ericdykstra wrote: post #48
mLuby wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, doesn't the madness stop once the identity breakdown in a given field roughly matches the identity in the general population? If X% of people are Black, I would expect given no structural impediments that roughly X% of Mathematicians would also be Black. The how to get there in the quickest and fairest way is a political question.

This is baseless, unscientific blank-slateism, and isn't true anywhere in the world among any demographic segment in any measure. If 10% of Singaporean men are gay would you expect 10% of male plumbers in Singapore to be gay? If women are 30% of the workforce in Canada, would you expect Canadian dental assistants to be 70% male? Disparate outcomes doesn't imply unfair treatment.

What specifically do you think is the reason black people should not be expected to achieve demographic parity in academic math? And how does that relate to “blank slate-ism”? You seem to be implying that there is some inherent characteristic of black people that prevents them from attaining equal representation in math academia. Is this what you intended to convey? Please be explicit.
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