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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

111–120 of 345 posts

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#111
European law has been very tilted towards Diesel engines for a long time. As the recent VW debacle proved - oversight was quite lax compared to the US diesel regs. This laxness was the result of the influence of BMW, Mercedes and VW and the outcome of years of corporate lobbying. It’s a good first step, but they have further to go.

Despite the rhetoric, Germany has also been very restrictive with Tesla, viewing it as a challenge to its crown jewel automotive companies (no credits, no additional supercharger stations, much harsher reading of laws to protect their own industries).

You know that Germany will be serious when that changes.... (or the German car companies will have finally caught up to Tesla’s battery power and power train)...

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I'm trying to find a place that is free of cars because, well, they ruin life if you enjoy walking and cycling. So far, places that come to mind are central Ghent and Rothenburg ob der Tauber (sadly the latter allows cars but they're still very few in number). If I were there I would expect to work remote, or start my own gig. I'd shop locally. There are very few places in the world where you can…

In many cases I see cycling ruin life if you enjoy driving or walking ;). I do find places that i've seen be bike friendly in Europe do a much better job at this. But cyclists in Toronto can be pretty awful. Likewise can pedestrians and cars. Whichever way I travel, the other two are annoying me or causing me grief somehow.

Don't really know Toronto, but bikes are pretty annoying for pedestrians here in Germany as well.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#113
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

Can you please elaborate where you got your data points from. I am a diesel car owner (have been for about 15 years) and I have yet to experience those issues you mention. Currently it has -12°C outside and my car starts just fine.

Back in the late '90s when I got my first diesel (a Citroen AX, with what was at the time the smallest production diesel power plant available) you'd have to wait many seconds for the glow plugs to warm the car before trying to start it. Diesel also freezes in the extreme cold, though that's not really a major issue in the UK. You could also run it on used cooking oil.

In the 20 years since then diesels have undergone massive and very rapid evolutionary changes through tax incentives (massively favoring low CO2, high MPG cars) and resulting fleet buying pressures. The result is what we have now: fabulously complicated, precision-engineered common rail engines with multiple turbochargers, incredible efficiency, almost petrol-like smoothness, weird stuff like urea tanks, and instant starting. If you put old vegetable oil in them they would break instantly and expensively.

I went from that AX in 1995 to a new Jaguar XJ6 in 2008 (via lots of petrol cars). The only thing they had in common was the black pump. In no other way were those engines comparable; the Jag was a beautiful, torquey, silky, rumbling thing that felt like a big V8, did 1,000 miles on a single tank, and beat 911s off the traffic lights (well, until 30mph). The AX was an agricultural dinosaur that deafened anyone in it and was so nose heavy you'd break a sweat parking it. One of those cars I could and did keep in tune with a hammer and a can of WD-40; the other needed a team of factory mechanics with computers and an expensive annual service. I sold it as soon as the warranty expired, but the AX was running fine until my sister drove it into a parked car shortly before I got the XJ.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#114
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] Cars are a net negative for societies (see e.g. https://tu-dresden.de/bu/verkehr/ivs/voeko/ressourcen/dateie... ). Just imagine having most (80%+) of goods transported by cargo bike: lots of (local!) employment, lots of new technology needed, etc.

So let's take a different approach: Let's find a better solution for individual transportation that doesn't require human labor (e.g. pedaling) and offers the same benefits (ability to comfortably make 500 km per working day, for example - that's average daily mileage of a taxi driver).

You seem very much in favour of cars, but also imagining that cities without cars would look much like cities with cars. Huge amounts of land are given over to roads and parking. Get rid of these and you have much denser cities without decreasing usable space per inhabitant.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean, free asphalt and parking? I'm paying huge taxes and this stuff is built from taxes. Edit: To the people downvoting: We're talking about Europe. The US apparently works differently, but that's not how it's in the EU.

Grandparent probably doesn't mean "free", but "sunk cost".

I mean free at point of delivery. People using them don't necessarily pay for them (if I drive from SF to San Diego, I pay nothing to LA for the use of their roads, which doesn't really seem fair, though admittedly most of that drive would be on Interstate) I'd have no problem with tolled roads. Funny enough I would _love_ tolled bike paths - I'd pay several grand a year for them willingly - if I could even get them.

But I can't because we give roads to cars for free and that can't be questioned.

For that matter I'd love to lease some of the park and ride spots near transit so I could build an apartment on them (they're nearly free) but apparently I'm not allowed to do that. I can't even use them to park a mobile home permanently. How is that fair?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#116

I am so confused by government policy here in the UK. Right now I'm looking at a 5 year old used Diesel car with £0 road tax and 70+ MPG for about 10k GBP. My current Petrol engine costs £130/annum road tax, and only gets 30-40 MPG, I can also buy petrol cars with road tax of £240-500/annum (based on emissions) But if I buy the Diesel, it could be banned or worthless in a few years, because of these types of policies…

Vehicle Excise Duty doesn’t (generally) change retroactively, so 5 years ago they were telling whoever bought that diesel car to buy diesel.

The bands are now (since April 2017) flat regardless of emissions for petrol and diesel [1], so the encouragement is to buy either an electric car or a petrol/diesel car (as you prefer) with a new price less than £40k (or more than 5 years old).

The only part that changes with emissions now is the fee at registration, which is factored into the purchase price (for a new car) or already paid (for a used car).

1: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#117

European law has been very tilted towards Diesel engines for a long time. As the recent VW debacle proved - oversight was quite lax compared to the US diesel regs. This laxness was the result of the influence of BMW, Mercedes and VW and the outcome of years of corporate lobbying. It’s a good first step, but they have further to go. Despite the rhetoric, Germany has also been very restrictive with Tesla, viewing it as…

A big part of the problem here is the the EU was focusing on CO2 rather than NOx and that diesels are actually really good in the CO2 department.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I'm trying to find a place that is free of cars because, well, they ruin life if you enjoy walking and cycling. So far, places that come to mind are central Ghent and Rothenburg ob der Tauber (sadly the latter allows cars but they're still very few in number). If I were there I would expect to work remote, or start my own gig. I'd shop locally. There are very few places in the world where you can…

In many cases I see cycling ruin life if you enjoy driving or walking ;). I do find places that i've seen be bike friendly in Europe do a much better job at this. But cyclists in Toronto can be pretty awful. Likewise can pedestrians and cars. Whichever way I travel, the other two are annoying me or causing me grief somehow.

When you say cyclists in Toronto can be awful, what do you mean? Are they mean to you, or do they not follow the rules of the road, or something else?

When I cycle I fear being killed by a motorist; when I drive I fear killing a cyclist. It's important to clarify whether cyclists are putting you in danger or if they are stressing you out. Both suck, but one sucks a lot more.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#119

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

Please no bicylces, they are terrible for pedestrians. I'd rather deal with cars than bikes.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like sofas, armchairs, refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers, flat-screen TVs and oak beds? Great idea, but how would you feasibly transport them? The deliveroo boxes are going to have to increase in size...

In the Netherlands bakfiets ( http://img.tweede-hands.net/pics/00/13/08/63/97/3c.jpg?d0cc3... ) can be easily used to transport this kind of things. Also, realistically, do you need to transport these things on a daily basis? Can you not rent a (electric) truck whenever you need this kind of things?

Heck, a car in the netherlands is also very, very expensive. Especially if you live in the inner core of a relatively old city, which are not designed for cars and where parking space is at a premium.

I'm fairly sure most people working normal office kind of jobs could easily live without a car, especially if cities use that money to make public transport available to more "remote" regions easily.

My employer actually used this reasoning and has an office next to the train station, which makes traveling with public transport from other cities a breeze and prevents the company from having to pay massive fees for parking space.

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