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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

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Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#41

Post by Zak »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #28
Zak wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first link goes to a paywall for me. Is the fuel subsidized, or just taxed less? The tax on gasoline in Germany is roughly 100% at current prices.

> Is the fuel subsidized, or just taxed less? What's the difference?

In a big picture sense, they're the same. I think it says something different about intent though. A subsidy says something is essential or desirable. A relatively lower, but still very high excise tax says one thing is disliked less than the other.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#42

Post by izacus »

dingo_bat wrote: post #3

Is this backed by real science? I was under the impression that modern diesels were highly efficient and quite within the acceptable emission standards.

Besides all the other answers here, there's a surprising amount of people that disable DPF units on their diesels making them very dirty.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#43

Post by 72deluxe »

yostrovs wrote: post #27
guardian5x wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

I have not had a problem with cold starts with diesels in the decade I've been driving them. I did have a VW Golf with a PD engine but now have a VW with a Common Rail engine. In both cases I prefer them to petrol cars because:

a. the torque is great - not slow to accelerate at all. Try one! The PD engine had great low-end torque but the common rail has great torque for the entire power band, which is extensive. Really rapid. Perhaps you were driving an ancient SD-engined vehicle without a turbo??

b. Driving is so smooth; petrol is quicker to respond which is less forgiving.

Also, as the engine components are larger and slower moving, they last far longer; my work colleague's 2005 5-series BMW is nearing 250,000 miles and is still supremely fast. (Contrast with a bike engine that goes for 40k or 50k due to high revs?)

My 2008 Golf did get smokey but the guy I sold it to has been using the BP cleaning diesel (or the Shell equivalent) and says it doesn't smoke at all any more.

I like the sound of them; the non-sporty petrol cars round by me sound like the engine is rattling to pieces (eg my colleague's Vauxhall Astra); with high-performance tuned sports cars then yes the petrol sounds great. I rarely see any V-configuration engines these days.

This perspective is from myself in the UK.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#44

Post by albertgoeswoof »

I am so confused by government policy here in the UK. Right now I'm looking at a 5 year old used Diesel car with £0 road tax and 70+ MPG for about 10k GBP.

My current Petrol engine costs £130/annum road tax, and only gets 30-40 MPG, I can also buy petrol cars with road tax of £240-500/annum (based on emissions)

But if I buy the Diesel, it could be banned or worthless in a few years, because of these types of policies. So what is the government telling me to purchase?

I can't buy an electric car because I only have on street parking so there's nowhere to charge it, and decent electric cars aren't really available at the 10k mark yet.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#45

Post by TheLostOne »

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray!

Next: Petrol cars please.

Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful.

[1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236496X

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#46

Post by Brakenshire »

Shivetya wrote: post #24

I assume they are removing cars and buses making use of this tech first as they are far more likely to be dirty that cars. Even the cheating VW cars were still magnitudes cleaner than the immediate previous generation. I think they are going to find their pollution problem is nearly as bad and will need to make more difficult choices rather than relying on fear of a partial truth. It isn't just diesel cars making the…

Buses, HGV's and all other large vehicles actually tend to run okay on diesel, because they are large and expensive enough to carry and pay for the necessary equipment to reduce NOx and PM. It's small cars in particular where diesel just doesn't work.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#47

Post by rerx »

thesimon wrote: post #21
rerx wrote: post #14

Note that this ruling is only to clarify that cities are allowed to implement car bans on their own without a federal directive in place. Now we will have to wait and see if the cities will actually be sued into having to implement such bans.

>Now we will have to wait and see if the cities will actually be sued into having to implement such bans. They already have been forced to implement such bans by the lower court. The cities appealed, but as decided today were unsuccessful in doing so.

Well, some have.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#48

Post by adventured »

cwal37 wrote: post #13
dingo_bat wrote: post #3

Is this backed by real science? I was under the impression that modern diesels were highly efficient and quite within the acceptable emission standards.

There's a big difference between general "emissions" which a lot of people take colloquially to just mean greenhouse gases (and CO2 in particular with combustion engines), and then the small particulates and other things (like NOx) that create worse local air conditions[1]. Most "modern" diesels in use do still have the latter problem. I think at the very cutting edge, if you maintain a very good filter and operate i…

Is the small particulate problem essentially what caused the infamous smog problems in Paris in recent years?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#49

Post by blensor »

yostrovs wrote: post #27
guardian5x wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

Can you please elaborate where you got your data points from.

I am a diesel car owner (have been for about 15 years) and I have yet to experience those issues you mention. Currently it has -12°C outside and my car starts just fine.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#50

Post by mseebach »

loverofthings wrote: post #33
guardian5x wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about NOx, which is not healthy for humans. In regards to CO2, which is bad for the climate, Diesels are indeed better than petrol cars.

NOx is also the biggest product of animal agriculture. It also has an effect on climate change. Global warming potential is around 300 times larger than CO2. [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential#Value...

Not a chemist, but pretty sure Nitrous oxide (N2O) isn't in the NOx family.
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