Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules • Hacker News Board

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#21

Post by thesimon » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:03 PM UTC

rerx wrote: post #14

Note that this ruling is only to clarify that cities are allowed to implement car bans on their own without a federal directive in place. Now we will have to wait and see if the cities will actually be sued into having to implement such bans.

>Now we will have to wait and see if the cities will actually be sued into having to implement such bans.

They already have been forced to implement such bans by the lower court. The cities appealed, but as decided today were unsuccessful in doing so.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#22

Post by mtgx » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:03 PM UTC

dingo_bat wrote: post #3

Is this backed by real science? I was under the impression that modern diesels were highly efficient and quite within the acceptable emission standards.

Diesel cars produce less CO2, and I believe that's only because diesel engines use less fuel than gas engines (about 40% less). This was the idea behind "diesel being cleaner".

However, diesel is way more dangerous to human life because of the NOx particles. This is why diesel cars will now be the first to go.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#23

Post by foepys » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:04 PM UTC

yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

Stop touting "Germany buys electricity from France because they don't have nuclear power". France always exported electricity because they cannot power their nuclear power plants up and down as easy as others can their coal plants. In hot summers and cold winters France relies on Germany electricity to stabilize their net because nuclear power then becomes a problem.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#24

Post by Shivetya » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:06 PM UTC

I assume they are removing cars and buses making use of this tech first as they are far more likely to be dirty that cars. Even the cheating VW cars were still magnitudes cleaner than the immediate previous generation.

I think they are going to find their pollution problem is nearly as bad and will need to make more difficult choices rather than relying on fear of a partial truth. It isn't just diesel cars making their cities dirty. As stated, the change made to even the cheating cars would have demonstrated such if it were just cars

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#25

Post by Zak » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:06 PM UTC

yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

The first link goes to a paywall for me. Is the fuel subsidized, or just taxed less? The tax on gasoline in Germany is roughly 100% at current prices.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#26

Post by guardian5x » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

dingo_bat wrote: post #3

Is this backed by real science? I was under the impression that modern diesels were highly efficient and quite within the acceptable emission standards.

This is about NOx, which is not healthy for humans. In regards to CO2, which is bad for the climate, Diesels are indeed better than petrol cars.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#27

Post by yostrovs » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

guardian5x wrote: post #20

yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency?

Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#28

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #25

yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

The first link goes to a paywall for me. Is the fuel subsidized, or just taxed less? The tax on gasoline in Germany is roughly 100% at current prices.

> Is the fuel subsidized, or just taxed less?

What's the difference?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#29

Post by yostrovs » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #25

yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

The first link goes to a paywall for me. Is the fuel subsidized, or just taxed less? The tax on gasoline in Germany is roughly 100% at current prices.

Diesel is subsidized, as it is in other parts of Europe.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#30

Post by gambiting » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

dingo_bat wrote: post #3

Is this backed by real science? I was under the impression that modern diesels were highly efficient and quite within the acceptable emission standards.

Modern diesels, sure. Latest offerings from BMW, Mercedes or Audi are actually super clean, especially if equipped with an AdBlue system. But get out on the road and you see people still driving 90s diesels which emit huge plumes of black smoke every time they accelerate, and I know people who buy brand new cars and the first thing they do is cut out the DPF, EGR and pretty much every other emissions reducing system "to keep the running costs low". It's a disgrace, and older diesels should absolutely be straight up banned in cities with very harsh penalties for modifying modern ones(in UK removing the DPF attracts a £5000 fine, but in many EU countries it's still not a problem).