Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices • Hacker News Board

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#111

Post by oriol16 » Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 9:09 PM UTC

gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

"You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say."

It's understandable given the filibusterism, and outright prohibitions you would expect from the central government. Referendum has been proposed for 7 years and it was rejected every time.

Catalonia has less corruption than Spain in average. Even though the National Police and the judiciary have a very strong bias in favor of spanish parties.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#112

Post by collyw » Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 9:11 PM UTC

dazc wrote: post #69

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake." That referendum was restricted to two options, what the UK government wanted and what they thought was too extreme a position to win. By excluding the middle way option, which polling suggested would win they hoped to get their own position rubber stamped. The fact that i…

What was this 'middle way' option? Scotland already has its own Parliament, legislation and such. I always thought they were already in a 'middle way'? I'm not trying to be provocative, just trying to understand what else could Scotland get without going full-on independent?

Staying in the EU would be nice.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#113

Post by kiliancs » Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 9:12 PM UTC

gfiorav wrote: post #66

nsnick wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people up because they want to hold an election.

Sure but now you’re deciding what parts of the constitution you obey and which ones you don’t. That just doesn’t scale. If you want to modify the constitution you need 2/3 of the senate. There’s a procedure for that. There no excuse to break the constitution. If you think there is, you had no argument to defend your own constitutional rights.

The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it.

Spain (executive and judiciary) is choosing to ignore that (unlike Canada, for example), and not letting Catalonia exercise that right in any way. According to polls 70%/80% of Catalans think a referendum about independence should take place. The current Catalan government has the mandate from last elections to find a way for the Catalans to exercise this right even if Spain opposes, given that Spain has also refused all previous proposals to find a solution.

Catalans literally have no other option. They either waive their right to self-determination or they exercise it.

Some relevant sources:

Referendum Law: http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resulta...

The Legitimacy of Catalonia's Exercise of its Right to Decide (a Report by a Commission of International Experts): https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMM...

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#114

Post by notspanishflu » Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 9:14 PM UTC

farresito wrote: post #94

rbanffy wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy requires the rule of law. The law says the vote should not take place, therefore either the vote doesn't take place or the law (the constitution, in this case) is changed. Politics is the art of the possible. Right now, this is not possible and pushing for it is not constructive.

The Spanish constitution is violating one of the basic rights: the right of self-determination. To me, right now, it doesn't matter what the constitution says. We will ignore it. The constitution won't be changed because it's in their interest to not change.

Basic right for whom? Are you talking basic human right? A random bunch of people right? Who?

When defining a right, you must show who is the subject of that right.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#115

Post by collyw » Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

mcdevilkiller wrote: post #68

iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal…

A nice analogy I saw in the Scottish referendum was a divorce. Would it really make sense that both parties had to agree if one felt unfairly treated?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#116

Post by notspanishflu » Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

farresito wrote: post #28

pfortuny wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

If the law goes against one of the principles of democracy, the issue is with the law. What would your opinion be on a constitution that allows slavery? Because that was the case with a lot of constitutions in the past, and I think we would all agree that from a human right's point of view it was wrong. What's going on in Catalonia is illegal, but it's the democratically correct choice, and given what the Spanish gov…

Sure? The current situation doesn't have anything to do with Pujol family being close to go to jail for corruption?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#117

Post by collyw » Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #79

mcdevilkiller wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal…

What do you mean? in the scottish referendum only scots voted, not all brits. Are you saying that all spaniards (not only those living in Catalonia) should vote in the referendum? I don't see how this makes any sense.

Actually it was people living in Scotland. As a Scot living in Spain I wasn't allowed to. "Fair enough" I though, until we got completely screwed over with the English and Welsh voting for Brexit.

Lets face it the lead up to both referendums were based on packs of lies (on both sides probably - but it can only be proven for the winning sides).

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#118

Post by icebraining » Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 9:20 PM UTC

gfiorav wrote: post #64

balance_factor wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "oppressed" Sure, how are they oppressed? In 1938 Barcelona was bombed because the army wanted to destroy the republic and what existed of Catalonia autonomy. So any existing Catalonia autonomy or democracy of any form was crushed in 1939, replaced by a military dictatorship, and only started to recover in 1977-1978. The Spanish dictatorship killed thousands of Catalans after the 1939 takeover. The same forces…

What forces are you talking about? The fascist killed Spaniards from all Spain, not only Catalonia. In any case, the republic was outspokenly against the Catalan independence. Azaña was quoted to write in a letter “before alllwing for an independent Catalonia, I’ll give it to Franco”. Please don’t revise history, is the most fascist thing you can do. The problem with the referendum results is that they can’t be accur…

Azaña said many things: "Si en algún momento dominara en Cataluña otra voluntad y resolviera remar sola en su navío, sería justo permitirlo y nuestro deber consistiría en dejaros en paz, y si esto sucediera os desearíamos buena suerte hasta que cicatrizara la herida"

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#119

Post by oriol16 » Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 9:20 PM UTC

Mc_Big_G wrote: post #98

Funny to see all these Non-Spanish commenters that think they know what they're talking about. My wife is from Barcelona. I just spent 2 weeks there. Most Catalonians think the split, and the minority of people seeking it are fucking stupid. They are the Trumpsters of Spain. Truly strange to see most people here supporting the separatists. I don't necessarily agree with Spain's methods of dealing with this but many o…

Please enlighten us the stupid.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#120

Post by notspanishflu » Wed, Sep 20, 2017, 9:20 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #16

pfortuny wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

is it not the law based on the popular will, theoretically? Because it seems to me that these people are asking to vote.

They asking to vote outside the Law, not only European, or Spanish Law, but the Catalan Law too.