Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#111

Post by strict9 » Sun, May 28, 2017, 6:39 PM UTC

skue wrote: post #39

strict9 wrote: post #25

>Germany is far ahead of other large countries with regard to mental internationalization. This includes language competencies, international experience from student exchanges, and university studies. Countries such as France, Italy, Japan, and Korea lag far behind in these respects. Don't know much about France or Italy, but know enough about Korea and to a lesser extent Japan about how important language and intern…

> That along with the bombshell assertion without evidence that the inheritance tax is the greatest burdens companies face today removes any credibility from the rest of the article. You disagree with one point [1] and question another, so for that reason you discount the entire article? If you can't align new information with your existing mental model, then the new information must be completely wrong? This attitud…

There is at least one enormous falsehood in the article, and in another, a large political assertion made as though everyone agrees with it.

Of course I'm holding the author to a higher standard. Mine is a comment on HN, the other is an article by a purported expert on a specific topic.

Information isn't partisan, but it inevitably ends up used for partisan purposes.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#112

Post by tscs37 » Sun, May 28, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

samfisher83 wrote: post #67

I think this is a big contributor: A further pillar of the Hidden Champions’ competitive strength is the unique German dual system of apprenticeship, which combines practical and theoretical training in non-academic trades. The Hidden Champions invest 50% more in vocational training than the average German company. I think a 4 year college degree does not make sense for a lot of jobs. It just puts students with more…

>I think a 4 year college degree does not make sense for a lot of jobs. It just puts students with more debt, and sometimes skills that don't lead to a job.

Well, the thing is that college and university don't cost as much and there are various government and private funds you can take advantage off. Counting from personal anecdotes, I think only 1 student in my current semester group is actually on a credit debt and that not entirely related to university spending either.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#113

Post by JanSt » Sun, May 28, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #43

JanSt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is right in some way, but he also misses that german workers had to take a lot of cuts in pay, benefits and working conditions. While french workers only have a 35 hours work week and greece workers get to enjoy a long pension, germans work till 67 (soon 69) getting a lower pension (as percentage of pay) and mostly work 40 hours (for full time workers. Statistics are heavily skewed by (mostly) female part time wor…

Well, and that's part of the problem no? When the economy improves why is not the welfare of the Germans improving? If not that their people have a better life, what it means that an economy is going well then? We read about micro-jobs and how some retired people have to work again in one of the richest countries in the world. What is the point of a stronger economy if the life is harder for their inhabitants? I thin…

The thing is that the conditions have changed considerably. In earlier times there were 3-4 people working for every retired person and the average retirement span was ~5 years. Now it's 2:1 and ~15 years in retirement. Something has to give, sadly...

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#114

Post by mbid » Sun, May 28, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

thesumofall wrote: post #76

mbid wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Baden-Württemberg (the South Western state), 37% are catholic and 33% are part of the official evangelical church, with likely a few in smaller protestant groups. Likewise for franconia, which is mostly within the state of Bavaria.

I'm not the one in this thread claiming causation but if there is correlation it is in Germany almost certainly between Catholicism and economic output rather than Protestantism: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Römisch-katholische_Kirche_i...

I doubt the effect of denomination would be very big, so not taking into account much stronger factors (e.g. West vs East), this map doesn't say anything.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#115

Post by caseysoftware » Sun, May 28, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #49

pm90 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how/whether increasing the defense budget would help the German economy. Let me just say right away, that I am in no way advocating for increasing the supply of arms and ammunition in the world, which already seems to be at dangerous levels. However, if Germany invested as much in military R&D and a domestic arms industry, I wonder if that would boost the economy as it has done in the US. Also, the immigrati…

This is the broken window fallacy. Every dollar spent "investing" in military r&d, Is one less dollar that can be invested elsewhere. Why not just invest all that money directly into the economy instead of doing it in an extremely roundabout way. Or, I don't know, just pay people to dig holes and fill them back up again, if you believe in the idea of economic "stimulus".

> This is the broken window fallacy.

No, it's not. With investment in military R&D, there's no "broken window." Claiming that destruction in one place (aka war) spurs growth is the broken window fallacy.

It's possible that investment "directly into the economy" might be more effective except for the fact that you have to take the money out of the economy and put it into a few peoples' hands to direct. The fewer hands means the easier it is to corrupt or hijack the process. I'd rather for "the economy" to invest on its own.

As Hayek said, I want "plans by the many not by the few."

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#116

Post by jcampion » Sun, May 28, 2017, 6:46 PM UTC

skue wrote: post #39

strict9 wrote: post #25

>Germany is far ahead of other large countries with regard to mental internationalization. This includes language competencies, international experience from student exchanges, and university studies. Countries such as France, Italy, Japan, and Korea lag far behind in these respects. Don't know much about France or Italy, but know enough about Korea and to a lesser extent Japan about how important language and intern…

> That along with the bombshell assertion without evidence that the inheritance tax is the greatest burdens companies face today removes any credibility from the rest of the article. You disagree with one point [1] and question another, so for that reason you discount the entire article? If you can't align new information with your existing mental model, then the new information must be completely wrong? This attitud…

I think this puts into light the fact that the article doesn't cite sources for its affirmations, thus making it worth as much as an opinion piece, and allowing other people to interject and oppose their own view points. I know this piece comes from HBR, and the author probably has done his share of research before writing, but still.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#117

Post by stale2002 » Sun, May 28, 2017, 6:50 PM UTC

tehlike wrote: post #110

stale2002 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the broken window fallacy. Every dollar spent "investing" in military r&d, Is one less dollar that can be invested elsewhere. Why not just invest all that money directly into the economy instead of doing it in an extremely roundabout way. Or, I don't know, just pay people to dig holes and fill them back up again, if you believe in the idea of economic "stimulus".

The military tech is actually useful - many of the things we use today as ubiquitous was an artifact of military. It's definitely not the same thing as digging down holes. However, what i do not know is how much of US military spending is on R&D

But why not just invest in those things directly?

Example: GPS was invented by the military. But you could have a different government organization work on all the useful stuff that comes out of the military that has nothing to do with blowing people up.

You could also argue that if you invest trillions of dollars into digging holes, that might result in useful technology. Taking the example of GPS, maybe you need to very accurately know what your position is, so that you can pinpoint exactly where you want the hole to be built.

My hole digging government department could have invented GPS too!

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#118

Post by foepys » Sun, May 28, 2017, 6:52 PM UTC

Pica_soO wrote: post #63

buro9 wrote: post #11

Wow, that's a pretty appalling article. Seems to avoid even mentioning the desire of most of Europe to try and learn from what went wrong after the Great War. In 1918-1930 Germany was left so weakened by peace treaties that the seeds were sown for WW2. Post-WW2 the allies felt that a Germany crippled would only bring future wars, and a huge co-ordinated effort to build a sustainable industry and economic growth was p…

Okay, first things- first - no lessons where learned, nobody out of the good of their hearts did anything for anybody. The original plan after world war 2 was to turn Nazi Germany into a agrarian border stripe between the two emerging power blocks. This plan was put into action, and some starvation resulted from the dismantling and moving of the factories. The reason this changed is because the cold war tensions, mad…

You say that like every single German personally executed jews and other minorities.

Yes, a lot of Germans did. Yes, more Germans went along and didn't do anything against the Nazis.

But only a minority of Germans knew how bad it was. My grandmother told me that they knew about some labor camps were certain people were put. She said that she didn't know anything about the industrialized murder. If you look on the map, you will see that the extermination camps (the concentration camps constructed to kill people) were located outside of the German Reich so that the German public would not get to know about it. Hitler knew that the extermination camps could weaken his position and enrage the public.

Most Wehrmacht soldiers followed orders and marched against the enemy they were told to shoot at. Yes, this is also bad and "I just followed orders" should not be an excuse. But the recent 72 years showed that most Germans were peaceful and just wanted to live their live. Homecoming soldiers didn't jump on the next minority and beat them up. The overwhelming majority was just happy that everything is over. Hitler was never elected by a majority and he came to his final power through a coup d'état.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#119

Post by stale2002 » Sun, May 28, 2017, 6:55 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #115

stale2002 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the broken window fallacy. Every dollar spent "investing" in military r&d, Is one less dollar that can be invested elsewhere. Why not just invest all that money directly into the economy instead of doing it in an extremely roundabout way. Or, I don't know, just pay people to dig holes and fill them back up again, if you believe in the idea of economic "stimulus".

> This is the broken window fallacy. No, it's not. With investment in military R&D, there's no "broken window." Claiming that destruction in one place (aka war) spurs growth is the broken window fallacy. It's possible that investment "directly into the economy" might be more effective except for the fact that you have to take the money out of the economy and put it into a few peoples' hands to direct. The fewer hands…

But with the military, you are already taking that money out of the economy and putting it into a few people's hands directly.

I wasn't suggesting redistributing money from one company to another.

I was suggesting having some sort of government agency, that spends trillions of dollars a year on doing all those R&D things that the military does that have nothing to do with blowing people up.

Literally just "The military, minus the guns, bombs, fighter jets, and everything else that involves killing people".

That wouldn't be perfect, but for the purpose of making the economy/world a better place, such a "not killing people military" seems like it would be strictly better than our current military.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#120

Post by y4mi » Sun, May 28, 2017, 6:59 PM UTC

dejv wrote: post #104

neikos wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In germany you do this when you are 18, after your Abitur usually.

Thats case for gymnasiums, right? How about other type of schools? Are they still popular? Here in Czech rep. those vocational only schools are kind of dyin.

yeah, what he says is wrong.

there are classes with older pupils (~19-30 years old), but they're the minority. most are, as you kindly noted before, between 15 and 18.

and i honestly can't agree on this constant praise for this system. i'm just finishing with my apprenticeship and the school part was a total joke. i think the highlight of my time there was me entering the class and saying 'good morning' to the teacher, who responded with 'shut up, i want to sleep'. which was followed by 270 minutes of "self study" on the internet.

and the payment for this exercise is a joke as well. you actually get less than our social security (hartz iv) would be giving you for doing nothing.