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Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

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Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#101
post #73

I think this is a big contributor: A further pillar of the Hidden Champions’ competitive strength is the unique German dual system of apprenticeship, which combines practical and theoretical training in non-academic trades. The Hidden Champions invest 50% more in vocational training than the average German company. I think a 4 year college degree does not make sense for a lot of jobs. It just puts students with more…

We have similar educational system here in Czech Republic. There are numerous pros and cons. Basically at the age of 15 you have to choose what you want to do with your life as changing careers are not that simple. And lets be honest, most of 15 years old kids have no idea what they want to spend rest of their life doing. I did take this technical route (focusing on electronics, computer networking and programming) a…

In germany you do this when you are 18, after your Abitur usually.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#102
post #78

Germany's real secret is that they don't pay their engineers. An engineer, even with a PhD from a world class university, makes around 55k. Even in cities like Munich they will laugh about you if you request 60k. Sure, if you have tons of experience, industry contacts etc., maybe more SOMETIMES. But let's get back to the 55k. A short internet search (www.nettolohn.de) tells us this is approximately 2600 Euro net pay…

From what I can tell, the pay in UK, France, Spain, Italy is similar or worse. I guess that's how we roll in Europe.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colloquial use of theory usually means concept or hypothesis .

Okay, there is no formal concept or hypothesis of trickle down economics. (However, most PhD economists use the phrase "economic theory," but you may have some insight into this that they have not yet been exposed to.)

Sure there is. The concept is that if you allow the richest to keep all their riches, they will spend it on things which will stimulate the rest of the economy. Of course, this has proven to be a seriously misguided theory, with the actual results being a lack of consumer spending and concentration of wealth to the wealthy. Is that succinct enough for you? Now, whether a bonafide economist came up with this, or RR just pulled it out of his butt is another question...

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#104
post #101
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have similar educational system here in Czech Republic. There are numerous pros and cons. Basically at the age of 15 you have to choose what you want to do with your life as changing careers are not that simple. And lets be honest, most of 15 years old kids have no idea what they want to spend rest of their life doing. I did take this technical route (focusing on electronics, computer networking and programming) a…

In germany you do this when you are 18, after your Abitur usually.

Thats case for gymnasiums, right? How about other type of schools? Are they still popular? Here in Czech rep. those vocational only schools are kind of dyin.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#105
I think our education system is pretty solid and well equipped to deal with tomorrows challenges and create competent employees (this is just briefly addressed in the article). While our education system is pointlessly complicated, a typical product of german bureaucracy, it's surprisingly flexible. If you want a job in Germany, you have do get some form of a degree. Especially "hidden champions" don't hire unskilled labourers, ever. There are essentially 3 options:

1. the apprenticeship: Still popular it is the most practical of the three. It takes a few years where you learn to master all the basics, even if its in practice handled by a machine, but also all the necessary theoretic backgrounds so that you know what you are doing. All the practical skills are taught at the company and there are (mostly) special schools for the theoretic parts. Also important: The apprentice already earns something during his apprenticeship! For some, depending on the individual circumstances, this is very important. Also you apply your skills as soon as possible, since the company already pays you, it tries to get you productive as soon as possible. Apprenticeship are no joke, they produce hard working, competent and practical employees. There are A LOT of companies looking for apprentices right now and not enough applicants.

2. the "dual study system"(direct translation): This is getting more and more popular and for many it is the right choice. It's a mix between apprenticeship and a university study. Half of your time you spend at your company, the other half you study at special "applied university"-like institutions(legally, they are not universities in Germany). I think especially for CS, most would be in good hands in these programs. They don't focus on super-theoretical stuff, they are very practical while providing your with a valid bachelor-degree in the end. For some subjects, the dual is the better option. The applied universities are not super focused on research and staffed with professors coming from the industry. They will teach you real-world, relevant stuff without neglecting the theoretical basics. After the bachelor, you have the choice to delve deeper into research with a master, either at this institution or switching to a traditional university. Also, you get paid during your study.

3. the university study: Well, this is essentially the same compared to your universities beside that it's free ;) They are often way more theoretical then the dual-study system. You have to be motivated by your material, since it's not immediately useful. Also in germany as an university student you are very independent, nobody pushes you to go to your lectures, take the tests or do your weekly problem set. Many get too relaxed and perform better in a more controlled environment. But if you're interested in the theoretical side of your subject and you want get a more academically demanding degree, the university is the right choice.

As a CS-student in germany, automation and digitalisation of factories (industry 4.0, as we call it) is the buzzword heard everywhere and i think this system is equipped to handle the challenge. Don't underestimate the apprentices, they know their stuff. 2-3,5 years of training are separating him from unskilled labor.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#106
post #78

Germany's real secret is that they don't pay their engineers. An engineer, even with a PhD from a world class university, makes around 55k. Even in cities like Munich they will laugh about you if you request 60k. Sure, if you have tons of experience, industry contacts etc., maybe more SOMETIMES. But let's get back to the 55k. A short internet search (www.nettolohn.de) tells us this is approximately 2600 Euro net pay…

First of all, you have to adjust this for the cost of living and the fact that employers have to pay about half of the health insurance and retirement savings cost on top of the salary as well as three or four weeks of payed holidays etc. 55k Euros in Munich is easily worth more than $100k in the US.

Second, a CS graduate can certainly get 60k in Munich and a PhD will likely have 70k or more. At BMW this may be 80k or more.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, there is no formal concept or hypothesis of trickle down economics. (However, most PhD economists use the phrase "economic theory," but you may have some insight into this that they have not yet been exposed to.)

Sure there is. The concept is that if you allow the richest to keep all their riches, they will spend it on things which will stimulate the rest of the economy. Of course, this has proven to be a seriously misguided theory, with the actual results being a lack of consumer spending and concentration of wealth to the wealthy. Is that succinct enough for you? Now, whether a bonafide economist came up with this, or RR ju…

This is not a description of a formalized theory, but thanks for playing.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#108
post #98
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing bad in being a large or the largest exporter. Germany exported a lot and imported a lot. But recently this had led to the absurd situation, that Germany exports both, goods AND capital: https://www.querschuesse.de/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/1a18.... This is not sustainable.

> Germany exported a lot and imported a lot. Germany exports more than it imports, at least since the 60s. > But recently this had led to the absurd situation, that Germany exports both, goods AND capital Not recently. Happened already in the 70s and 80s. The decade after reunification was unusual. Starting with 2001 Germany was back exporting capital.

Did you bother clicking the link? No.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#109
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one direct exposure I have had to the issue of inheritance tax was with a small Midwest-based distributor. The owner was very old and wanted to pass the company to his daughters, who had actually been running the business for decades (and when I came along, his granddaughters were working the office). His issue was that what the government decided his business to be worth could only be paid with more cash than hi…

That sounds like a failure of tax & estate planning. If you wait until you are very old to give away your assets you are putting yourself in the pay-the-most-inheritance-tax position. If the daughters had been running the business for decades already, they would have had lots of time to shift the ownership. This isn't an argument against inheritance tax, it's an argument for better education about personal finances.

So you're saying it this is not an example against inheritance tax because the family could've used loopholes in the legislation to circumvent paying the tax?

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#110
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how/whether increasing the defense budget would help the German economy. Let me just say right away, that I am in no way advocating for increasing the supply of arms and ammunition in the world, which already seems to be at dangerous levels. However, if Germany invested as much in military R&D and a domestic arms industry, I wonder if that would boost the economy as it has done in the US. Also, the immigrati…

This is the broken window fallacy. Every dollar spent "investing" in military r&d, Is one less dollar that can be invested elsewhere. Why not just invest all that money directly into the economy instead of doing it in an extremely roundabout way. Or, I don't know, just pay people to dig holes and fill them back up again, if you believe in the idea of economic "stimulus".

The military tech is actually useful - many of the things we use today as ubiquitous was an artifact of military. It's definitely not the same thing as digging down holes.

However, what i do not know is how much of US military spending is on R&D

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