Live data from Hacker News

Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

danluu.com

111–120 of 310 posts

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

It's as though people think that a car costs 45% as much in Kansas City. Or, to use another analogy, it's like being the wealthiest man in a developing nation. There's no amount of money that can buy you reliable infrastructure in a place that fundamentally lacks it.

I'm not sure if serious, but we do have reliable infrastructure in fly over country.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#112
post #15

I teach computer science at a well-known, large and mediocre university. I see bimodal grade distributions all the time. The more technical a subject, the more bimodal the grades. In fluff subjects like software engineering where grading relates to essay writing and group projects, grade distribution tends to be gaussian. OTOH in technical subjects where I grade by automated test suits, basically students fail almost…

> In fluff subjects like software engineering where grading relates to essay writing and group projects How is SE a "fluff subject?" Why are they writing essays? When I took SE we had individual programming projects and a group project to write a compiler. Not fluff at all.

I think it depends where you study. In my university, SE was basically "Write essays about why OO is great and draw lots of UML".

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#113
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the part where you can very easily not have a car in NYC and just spend $120/m on the subway + $200/m on Uber. You actually come out ahead.

You could easily not have a car in Kansas City or any reasonably large city if that's a choice you want to make.

The difference in quality of public transportation between NYC and Kansas City is Grand Canyon-sized.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#114
post #21

Does anybody else think the salaries are a little high? Perhaps the sample size is skewed? I'm somewhat senior in software engineering, but I literally don't know a single person making over 200k. Nada. Not one. I also don't know any college grads who started making 150k. That seems absurd, unless you're only looking at certain companies and top performers or something.

Depends on where you are. High numbers like that are pretty normal to be tossed about in the bay area, and probably also NYC/Seattle.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there is the issue that after 40 you can't get hired unless your connected, Well that's not been my experience on the east coast. Most developers are over 35 in certain companies: finance, defence, high-status non-profits. Sure, there's a clusters of 20 year olds without degrees slaving away in the same vertical, but they're not in the same companies. I think for a young person, its harder to get a job unless…

Well the first rule in developing is 'lifestyle', I agree with you 100% that if you willing to work in a shit-hole be that east-coast or houston, or any shit-hole in USA, sure there will be a job, But if you want to live in a nice place, say San Franciso, and make enough to own a house and eat out every night, then its not what you know, but who you blow. I agree with you, but say your FORTRAN programmer, chances are…

> Well the first rule in developing is 'lifestyle', I agree with you 100% that if you willing to work in a shit-hole be that east-coast or houston, or any shit-hole in USA, sure there will be a job

Did you just call an entire continental coastline a 'shit hole'? An entire coastline of 112.6 million people, dozens of cities and weather ranging from cold-temperate to near-tropical?

Well, I must say I'm surprised. I knew people liked San Fran, but I never thought I'd meet someone who loved the place so much to the point their rose coloured goggles lead them to denigrate 1/3rd of the US population.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in NYC and I cannot speak to SF. But perhaps the NYC figures will provide insight. In short YES the car DOES cost 45% as much. My monthly parking cost is $520/mo (with another per-use fee if I take my car out more than twice a week.) The $520/mo is more than my $300/mo car payment. I dont know how much parking costs in KC but i'd venture it is near-free. Oh, and this is just the monthly cost at the apartment b…

Except the part where you can very easily not have a car in NYC and just spend $120/m on the subway + $200/m on Uber. You actually come out ahead.

Sure, and how much does your apartment cost? People in SF and NYC always seem to forget to factor in the price of admission (i.e. the efficiency apartment that costs 2x my mortgage) when bragging about how much money they're saving without a car.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#117
I suspect the bimodal distribution for programming and law have the same explanation: a group of highly profitable firms targeting a subset of the overall industry have imposed a de facto hiring floor that limits supply, raising wages.[1]

Why is Cravath raising salaries while 85% of legal grads are taking jobs making half or less of its old salary scale? Because it has a hiring floor. It won't hire lawyers that aren't at least one standard deviation, if not more, from the mean.[2] Their demand is high--each lawyer generates on average $1.3 million in revenue--and supply is limited to the 10-15% of the market that meets the hiring filter.

I suspect the same is true in the tech industry. Google, Facebook, etc. don't hire candidates who can "do the job." Like in law, there is this idea that it's important not just to have competent programmers, but programmers who are smarter than your competitors' programmers. These firms limit their pool of hires to those who, by their metrics, are one or even two standard deviations away from the mean.[3]

Meanwhile, everyone else is willing to hire the median programmer. They can do the job, and there isn't the same idea in that segment that it's worth paying much more to have people who can not only do the job, but do it faster/better than your competition.

[1] How this group of highly profitable firms continues to exist despite market competition is outside the scope of this post.

[2] Cravath measures that as a function of law school rank and class rank. No comment on the validity of this model.

[3] Again, no comment on whether going to CMU and acing interview puzzles makes you a top programmer. What matters is that these firms think it does.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#118

Funny thing that I was having a discussion with one of my friend who is in the middle of salary negotiation. The company is pushing him hard to accept the offer well below than his expectations and he was expecting more hike as he was relocating to bay area. He was quite disappointed that he didn't get the salary figure he was expecting but still wanted to accept the offer as he didn't want to loose the opportunity.…

> Why are they not transparent like finance guys, lawyers, doctors etc

In the world of top-tier law firms the "transparency" actually works against the incoming lawyers. You notice the quote in TFA: "Cravath announced that it would pay first-year associates $180k, and many other firms followed suit"? I see that as an implicit agreement to fix prices among these top law firms. I'm sure they're not foolish enough to actually collude on salaries, but Cravath knows exactly what it's doing when it says to the world "this is what we're paying our employees, sound good?"

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as though people think that a car costs 45% as much in Kansas City. Or, to use another analogy, it's like being the wealthiest man in a developing nation. There's no amount of money that can buy you reliable infrastructure in a place that fundamentally lacks it.

I live in NYC and I cannot speak to SF. But perhaps the NYC figures will provide insight. In short YES the car DOES cost 45% as much. My monthly parking cost is $520/mo (with another per-use fee if I take my car out more than twice a week.) The $520/mo is more than my $300/mo car payment. I dont know how much parking costs in KC but i'd venture it is near-free. Oh, and this is just the monthly cost at the apartment b…

Or you can live in NJ and commute in. NYC is substantially better in the range of options across distance/cost/space than (from what I know/have heard about) SF.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#120
post #96
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a quick Google Sheets with most "Developer employee codes" that are reported to the tax authority/Statistics Sweden. Salaries listed per Quartile, in SEK. The categories are quite broad. There is a listing per decile but I could not find it right now. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yPjcXoKuwq8SBngQ2-G9... http://SCB.se is the source.

This is nice, and should give a good picture of the industry as a whole. The data probably masks those who are self-employed subcontractors and take a lower salary in order to lower taxes at profit time, which should effectivly double or tripple the reported salary. Ofcourse, it does get a bit difficult to compare this data vs USA, because we have social necessities already payed for by the high tax of the collective…

Yep all very true.

I believe the salary listed here is pre-tax so the take home pay (for someone living in Stockholm) would be 30 330 Kr/m or $42.5k/yr.

This number excludes social costs; the total cost per month for the employer is just over 55 000 SEK/m.

Post reply on HN