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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#81

Post by s_kilk »

morgante wrote: post #56
stdbrouw wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the conclusion follows from the data. It's not implausible that in computer science you need to "get" a whole bunch of things before it clicks and you start being productive, and a bimodal distribution of grades would then be indicative only of people who are further along in the learning process vs. those that have not yet reached that critical point, rather than any huge difference in intrinsic abilit…

It also requires the right kinds of insights. I know plenty of people who somehow manage to make it all the way through an undergrad degree without ever really getting programming. They then managed to get a low-skill job at a low-caliber employer, where they produce bad code, poorly. But because even bad employers need code these days, they manage to maintain a job in programming despite never really understanding i…

> ... (and the ones you do have quickly leave)

"The problem with this place? Everyone with get-up-and-go has already got up and gone."

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#82

Post by TuringNYC »

jaggederest wrote: post #76
morgante wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

It's as though people think that a car costs 45% as much in Kansas City. Or, to use another analogy, it's like being the wealthiest man in a developing nation. There's no amount of money that can buy you reliable infrastructure in a place that fundamentally lacks it.

I live in NYC and I cannot speak to SF. But perhaps the NYC figures will provide insight. In short YES the car DOES cost 45% as much. My monthly parking cost is $520/mo (with another per-use fee if I take my car out more than twice a week.) The $520/mo is more than my $300/mo car payment. I dont know how much parking costs in KC but i'd venture it is near-free.

Oh, and this is just the monthly cost at the apartment building, not for destination costs which are separate.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#83

Post by morgante »

alistproducer2 wrote: post #75
morgante wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate these reductive COL adjustments. They're preposterous. Even if you assume that all your expenses are linearly multiplied (hint: Amazon costs the same no matter where you live), your savings are a lot more afterwards. If you were living on $40k/yr in Kansas City, you could move to SF and suddenly be saving $80k/yr. Would you really rather have $600k in Kansas City than $1 million in SF?

This adjustment is on the extreme end to be sure. If you make 80K where I am and live in the square footage I do, a comparable place in SF is around 3K* more expensive per month. So there's a very real, ~36K negative adjustment to that 120K SF salary for me. *editted

You must have an insanely huge apartment for rent to increase by $4k/m by moving to SF. But even assuming that -36k adjustment, you're much better off making $150k in SF than $80k in Kansas City.

Of course, you also have the option of downsizing into a smaller apartment. The amenities in a large city make it much easier to have a small apartment (for example, in NYC I drop off my laundry instead of washing it at home or hop around different coffee shops to work with a change of scenery). My quality of life is definitely higher in a small NYC apartment than a large Vermont house.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#84

Post by Fiahil »

mafribe wrote: post #15

I teach computer science at a well-known, large and mediocre university. I see bimodal grade distributions all the time. The more technical a subject, the more bimodal the grades. In fluff subjects like software engineering where grading relates to essay writing and group projects, grade distribution tends to be gaussian. OTOH in technical subjects where I grade by automated test suits, basically students fail almost…

I had the same experience for the 3 years I was teaching assistant. Some people "clicked" very early and some didn't, but it's not set in stone. I've seen people succeed with only hard work and motivation. Once you've unlocked yourself there is not much differences between you and the ones who have unlocked themselves earlier.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#85

Post by morgante »

TuringNYC wrote: post #82
jaggederest wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as though people think that a car costs 45% as much in Kansas City. Or, to use another analogy, it's like being the wealthiest man in a developing nation. There's no amount of money that can buy you reliable infrastructure in a place that fundamentally lacks it.

I live in NYC and I cannot speak to SF. But perhaps the NYC figures will provide insight. In short YES the car DOES cost 45% as much. My monthly parking cost is $520/mo (with another per-use fee if I take my car out more than twice a week.) The $520/mo is more than my $300/mo car payment. I dont know how much parking costs in KC but i'd venture it is near-free. Oh, and this is just the monthly cost at the apartment b…

Except the part where you can very easily not have a car in NYC and just spend $120/m on the subway + $200/m on Uber. You actually come out ahead.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#86

Post by bpyne »

alistproducer2 wrote: post #63
morgante wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also requires the right kinds of insights. I know plenty of people who somehow manage to make it all the way through an undergrad degree without ever really getting programming. They then managed to get a low-skill job at a low-caliber employer, where they produce bad code, poorly. But because even bad employers need code these days, they manage to maintain a job in programming despite never really understanding i…

I work at a large corp that has recently insourced all its IT. To support this they have been vacuuming up as much mediocre IT talent as they possibly could. Every once in a while they hire a person who is curious about the field and competent. For the most part, though, the majority MIS/CIS folks who couldn't hack CS or were business until a professor told them they could make a lot more money in MIS or "experienced…

What I find in in-house IT is that CS curiosity and ability to develop good software aren't the critical traits. In those environments, a "developer" spends the majority of his/her time integrating vendor solutions and writing connector code. Often they are task switching rapidly between projects, operations, and support. The critical skills belong to executive function: time planning, task switching, communications, etc. The stronger your executive function, the better work experience you have in those environments.

Of course, some companies see IT in a more strategic light so software development is robust and they do look for talented developers. A mid-sized financial company, I was employed at 12 years ago, wanted custom finance packages. At one time, Fidelity had a separate business unit that was IT R&D: I'm not sure if it still exists. Nowadays I believe they are the minority.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#87

Post by lhnz »

mafribe wrote: post #47
stdbrouw wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the conclusion follows from the data. It's not implausible that in computer science you need to "get" a whole bunch of things before it clicks and you start being productive, and a bimodal distribution of grades would then be indicative only of people who are further along in the learning process vs. those that have not yet reached that critical point, rather than any huge difference in intrinsic abilit…

I agree, I don't think there is much difference in intrinsic ability. I'm absolutely convinced that every healthy person can become a really good programmer. But becoming a really good programmer requires putting in a lot of time doing programming, and a lot of students don't put in that time.

Cognitive ability isn't equally distributed.

It's not fair to call people that find programming difficult lazy. You can work harder and longer, but it only pays off up to a certain point.

There are some tasks which require more intelligence, and some which are easier for more people to do. And thankfully. there's more that can be done to make the former more like the latter.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#88

Post by randomemployee »

Amezarak wrote: post #55
jasode wrote: post #10

If there's a pronounced bimodal distribution, it seems like the biggest driver of it would be the lumping of various programmer specialties into one giant bucket. It seems like the 2 sub-buckets would be: 1) $100k or less: backoffice programmers where software itself is not the product sold. Also known as enterprisey/LOB/CRUD developers working outside Silicon Valley. (E.g. programmer working on mortgage servicing so…

I really think it's location, location, location, not necessarily whether or not the software is the product. I've worked for consulting companies, product companies, and right now I work for a sort-of back-office organization. The best I've been able to do, despite several years of experience, good references, inside connections, a graduate degree, and being pretty (I think, anyway) personable is...75k. And I don't…

Slight counter, I'm working remotely (I live in small town in the Philadelphia suburbs) for a company with the US office outside of Boston, making 135k right now.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#89

Post by hueving »

splatcollision wrote: post #38
meric wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory where the bimodal distributions comes from two sets of people: one set focused only passing the course/assignment/test, the other set focused on actually knowing the content. Appearance and substance.

FYI, you have an untested hypothesis, not a theory. Unless you have done some research somewhere. Sorry for the pedantics!

Poster was using the dictionary definition[1], the the scientific one.

1. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#90

Post by alistproducer2 »

morgante wrote: post #83
alistproducer2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This adjustment is on the extreme end to be sure. If you make 80K where I am and live in the square footage I do, a comparable place in SF is around 3K* more expensive per month. So there's a very real, ~36K negative adjustment to that 120K SF salary for me. *editted

You must have an insanely huge apartment for rent to increase by $4k/m by moving to SF. But even assuming that -36k adjustment, you're much better off making $150k in SF than $80k in Kansas City. Of course, you also have the option of downsizing into a smaller apartment. The amenities in a large city make it much easier to have a small apartment (for example, in NYC I drop off my laundry instead of washing it at home…

>You must have an insanely huge apartment for rent to increase by $4k/m

I meant to type 3K/mo (which is where my 36K adjustment came from). And yes, I've actually looked up housing in the Yay when I was considering a prospect there. Honestly, at the tiime I was looking for 2 bedrooms so my 3K adjustment may actually be under because now I need 3 bedrooms.

>Of course, you also have the option of downsizing into a smaller apartment.

No I don't. I have a wife and 2 children who if I can afford to give them their own room, I will.

That being said, I understand my calculations do not apply to everyone because we are not all at the same places in our lives (and may never be).

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