YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics • Hacker News Board

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#111

Post by saulrh » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 6:05 PM UTC

FreedomToCreate wrote: post #109

saulrh wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer: Life gets better. We have proof of this from history. When was the last time anybody here ground their own flour or washed their laundry using a rock and a river?

We are gonna end up in the future that Wall-E has predicted. Machines do everything and humans are fat slugs. Our minds are lazy and want to do the least amount of work. If given the option, we will do the least amount and occupy ourselves in entertainment. Now is that living? Thats up to you to decide. A good book to read on experiments done to understand human behavior is Daniel Kahnemans Thinking Fast and Slow.

Yeah, that's a risk. However, I'm less afraid of the robots that get us there and far more afraid of the applied psychology (propaganda/advertising/politics) that could trap the entire species in that state. The Culture demonstrates a future with similar robotic capabilities where the exact opposite happens, with people gaining nearly ultimate self-actualization, the difference being in the application of intelligence.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#112

Post by joe_the_user » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

gjkood wrote: post #17

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Along with the daily fish, does it makes sense to provide some sort of vocational training that an otherwise healthy person can take advantage of? If a person was not able to take advantage of early education for whatever reason, but is currently physically healthy, there is still opportunity to provide for himself and…

"Provide" isn't a good word here - if vocational training is connected to this program, the only connection possible would be forcing people to use these vocational programs (I mean, you might just send a brochure to people but that's not a real connection). Present day social services abound with various "workfare" schemes. Even more prison labor, they tend to be failures on all levels - neither preparing the participants for jobs in the real economy nor producing things of value nor giving the participants a feeling of worth.

The idea of universal basic income is to eliminate social services bureaucracy - basically that the money spent deciding who is or isn't deserving could be better allocated by just giving something to everyone.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#113

Post by FreedomToCreate » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 6:08 PM UTC

saulrh wrote: post #111

FreedomToCreate wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are gonna end up in the future that Wall-E has predicted. Machines do everything and humans are fat slugs. Our minds are lazy and want to do the least amount of work. If given the option, we will do the least amount and occupy ourselves in entertainment. Now is that living? Thats up to you to decide. A good book to read on experiments done to understand human behavior is Daniel Kahnemans Thinking Fast and Slow.

Yeah, that's a risk. However, I'm less afraid of the robots that get us there and far more afraid of the applied psychology (propaganda/advertising/politics) that could trap the entire species in that state. The Culture demonstrates a future with similar robotic capabilities where the exact opposite happens, with people gaining nearly ultimate self-actualization, the difference being in the application of intelligenc…

Explain how people will gain "ultimate self-actualization"?

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#114

Post by dang » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

mattkrisiloff wrote: post #81

jasonwen wrote: post #9

One year is too limited in my opinion. If you want to see what people will do with basic income, you have to give them the feeling the money is near infinite. One year looks to me its not enough to drop everything, as you will know it will soon come to an end. The paychological barrier for me would be at least 5+ years. Then again if I know it will come to an end in xx years, I will feel more inclined to work harder.…

Hi! I work on the study -- just want to affirm sub-thread clarification that this 1 year portion is a pilot to figure out logistics (not planning to answer research questions), and we hope to follow on with a 5 year study to actually answer the questions.

Ok, we changed the title above to try to communicate that.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#115

Post by kr7 » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 6:14 PM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #103

kr7 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think robots change anything. Robots increase efficiency of human workers, they don't replace them entirely. Netflix and Redbox are highly automated, but they still have human workers; just fewer than Blockbuster did. Robots that don't need humans is science fiction for the foreseeable future. They are not producing output from nothing; they are just tools that amplify the productivity of human workers. This…

"...they don't replace them entirely..." Tell that to the thousands of people who have lost their jobs on assembly floors. In fact, BI is a hedge against the future where there simply won't be enough for all of us to do. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/07/world-wi... http://www.wired.com/brandlab/2015/04/rise-machines-future-l... https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/what-happens-when-rob... ...and…

There is no such thing as a factory with zero workers. Fewer workers, but not zero. This is not a paradigm shift; the cycle of increased efficiency destroying jobs has been going on for hundreds of years.

There are so many problems that need solving. I don't think we are anywhere close to a world where there is not enough for people to work on. There is currently a mismatch between the skills needed and the skills available, but we should try to solve that problem first rather than giving up and saying that some people just cannot contribute anything.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#116

Post by stale2002 » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 6:24 PM UTC

chickenfries wrote: post #77

tim333 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand it allows YC to experiment and do stuff the politicians couldn't get away with. I quite like that they can say what they think rather than editing it to be politically appealing.

Who do you think could implement a universal basic income, besides a government? Implementing a UBI at a national level would be a monumental political task. The politics matter, even at this stage.

Studying the effects of something is different from trying to implement something.

These are 2, completely separate issues.

Perhaps once this research is done, other people who are more skilled at solving political problems, will take this research and do something useful with it.

UBI isn't something that is going to be done over night. Just look at the the comments here saying that the study won't 'really' measure the effects of UBI unless it is done for decades.

If someone doesn't start the research now, it won't be ready by the time UBI is actually politically feasible.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#117

Post by simbalion » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 6:32 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #16

godzillabrennus wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YC is still making these investments, they are simultaneous working to save the middle class because without that group of people we will have a lot less startups. I think what they are trying is important enough to risk some cash on and I'm eager to see how it pans out over the next couple of years.

if it were making such investments in the same spirit as before, it wouldn't also call $120K a "small amount of money" on its front page. I think what I object to is the silent change from investing an average of $18K to investing $120K and still calling the latter a small amount of money. It's really not. also let's be clear: from an investment standpoint, investing $12K instead of $120K means that startups can do t…

In some countries $18 thousand dollars would feed their family for years.

Americans are so sheltered many have broken minds.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#118

Post by johnm1019 » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

gjkood wrote: post #17

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Along with the daily fish, does it makes sense to provide some sort of vocational training that an otherwise healthy person can take advantage of? If a person was not able to take advantage of early education for whatever reason, but is currently physically healthy, there is still opportunity to provide for himself and…

> Maybe even a reversal of the automation movement in favor of using basic labor for many repetitive tasks in order to achieve this altruistic goal.

This is comment is a hilarious embodiment of the hipster movement.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#119

Post by Gargoyle » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 6:42 PM UTC

gjkood wrote: post #17

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Along with the daily fish, does it makes sense to provide some sort of vocational training that an otherwise healthy person can take advantage of? If a person was not able to take advantage of early education for whatever reason, but is currently physically healthy, there is still opportunity to provide for himself and…

Give him enough fish so that food isn't a concern and see what else he does with his time.

That's the point of this project.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#120

Post by simbalion » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

jwdunne wrote: post #105

simbalion wrote: post #101

"If you're low on income and have a family to support" then you made poor life choices and natural selection comes into play. Like it or not it is a force of nature.

Right, because you know my life well enough to make that kind of judgement. It's a nice, clever cop out but ultimately a cop out. Bicyclist gets hit by a car. Loses his legs. Did he make poor life choices? I wouldn't say so. Say that same bicyclist has built a career as a great door to door sales man. Now he's on hard times. Did he still make poor life choices? Should we, then, all avoid bicycles and work in door to…

Are you kidding? Riding a bicycle in the street is the very definition of a poor life choice.

Haha I got downvoted, probably by people who ride bikes.

Hey I love bikes, bikes need their own lane. When I grew up the government told me I could not ride my bike on the sidewalk anymore, so I stopped riding bikes. People who ride bikes in the street get hit by cars all the time. You accept the risks of the activities you participate in. Don't whine about how unfair it is. If you aren't willing to accept those risks then you should not engage in risky behavior.