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What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

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Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#111

Post by yummyfajitas »

pron wrote: post #103
yummyfajitas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is what happens when economic migration intersects with modern democracy and welfare states. Because of the state, migrants (who should be a net positive due to comparative advantage) suddenly become an economic drain and can harm the people in the society they enter. This happens both by taking resources from workers via the welfare state and by voting for harmful policies (though this last part usually…

That's been done in late 19th-century America, and the result was mass exploitation of immigrants and increased violence. In fact, regulation in the US (unlike in Europe) started as a response to what happened then (the US population cried for more regulation to save them from the Robber Barons). Of course, it was also a time of great economic growth but also third-world-like inequality. So what you're suggesting isn…

Meanwhile the people not in the west get to suffer dire poverty and war. But I guess those folks don't count.

I think that most white people in the south also preferred the current, perhaps more subdued reality of segregation to the constant struggles of integration and economic competition with "those people". Is that a valid argument against eliminating mandatory discrimination?

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#112

Post by iaskwhy »

Europe is a continent of diasporas[1], that should make it much easier to accept refugees but sadly people don't seem to think much about it. Also, most people in Europe will know someone or someone's family member who had to leave the country due to wars and persecutions. For example, my grandfather was tortured by it's own country's state police back in the 60s. Most people in Europe know stories like his.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_diaspora#Contemporary...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#113

Post by iaskwhy »

funkyy wrote: post #109
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

I am disgusted with the media recently. All western media are portraying this in a A/B approach. Either you accept migrants without hesitation, or you are fascist animal. Discussion is not allowed and despite growing public dislike of the process of accepting undocumented immigrants from war torn country that is full of ISIS fighters. Manipulation (majority of pictures show only women, children and few poorly dressed…

> Unaddressed things like the fact that majority of immigrants are actually safe in Turkey and Lebanon immigrant camps, yet they decide to go to Europe for better life (so its not like they are in danger).

This is false and it's easy to confirm, just read a bit about the conditions of these camps, the lack of food, etc, and if you want to see it for yourself, check YouTube, it actually has a lot of in person short docs about most refugee camps. That's what I did when I had that question in my mind, why would they leave those camps to risk their lifes, and it's mostly due to the lack of food, hygiene, healthcare, and over-capacity.

On a side-note, how can someone say something is unaddressed with the amount of information available on the internet? People just need to read a bit when in doubt and stop with false (and dangerous) assumptions.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#114

Post by emp_zealoth »

qcoh wrote: post #51
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

>Like unless they have families that they're hoping to have evacuated (why didn't they bring them over in the first place?), The reasons I've gathered so far are: The journey is dangerous not just because of the risk of drowning. If I recall correctly, there were stories of rape. There's also a law for family reunification (I don't know the details but at least in the case of minors this means they can bring their fa…

Wow. You mention immigrant rapists on the way as a valid reason to not bring women.. Yet when you as much as mutter about immigrant rapistz in europe all hell breaks loose, political correctness maelstorm Where is open discussion about the issues? Where is data to talk about? I tried to look for any and there are almost none that supports the PC side...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#115

Post by peterfirefly »

icc97 wrote: post #108
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

The 'resort to crime' isn't actually true [1]. We just think it is. [1]: http://phys.org/news/2012-06-people-undocumented-immigrants-...

Undocumented immigrants in the US who don't want to be discovered and deported are different from documented "refugees" (or actual refugees) in Europe. The latter don't have anywhere near the same reason to fear being deported or banished -- and they can be quite criminal with very few consequences (depending on the country they are in -- one of the reasons why Sweden is so popular at the moment).

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#116

Post by DanBC »

atmosx wrote: post #34
friendzis wrote: post #10

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

> I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. Did you ever look for any kind of information on the matter, or you just saw…

> I'll will assume - given your views it's far-fetched, I know* - that you're not retarded.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity.

> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#117

Post by pron »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #111
pron wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been done in late 19th-century America, and the result was mass exploitation of immigrants and increased violence. In fact, regulation in the US (unlike in Europe) started as a response to what happened then (the US population cried for more regulation to save them from the Robber Barons). Of course, it was also a time of great economic growth but also third-world-like inequality. So what you're suggesting isn…

Meanwhile the people not in the west get to suffer dire poverty and war. But I guess those folks don't count. I think that most white people in the south also preferred the current, perhaps more subdued reality of segregation to the constant struggles of integration and economic competition with "those people". Is that a valid argument against eliminating mandatory discrimination?

> But I guess those folks don't count.

No. But what does helping poor countries have to do with regulation?

> Is that a valid argument against eliminating mandatory discrimination?

No. As usual you're attributing to me arguments I've never made.

I would argue, though, that a person or a group of people have a higher moral responsibility towards a person or a group they've somehow helped reach their current condition. The US as a whole was responsible for slavery in the south, and Europe is at least partially responsible for the condition in the Middle East, especially as their meddling was for their own sake. I think they have a moral imperative to help, either in their own countries to refugees or directly in the ME.

I don't support the GP's position of non-intervention. But in either case, your "solution" is completely orthogonal.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#118

Post by levosmetalo »

varjag wrote: post #88
levosmetalo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now I personally would rather seen Assad dealt with in timely manner, years ago, instead of drawing stupid red lines in the water. This would have prevented the humanitarian disaster propelling the refugee crisis today, and would have hindered the raise of ISIS to boot. Since we can change the past though, I'm OK with helping people survive with my tax money. Please don't mess with Syria anymore, and don't try to h…

> Please don't mess with Syria anymore, and don't try to help with "your tax money". By helping with tax money I meant supporting the refugees, so. No. > Syria was fine, at least compared to current situation, before West started meddling with the middle east and forcing democracy there. It wasn't the West who massacred an unarmed protest with an airstrike back in the day. > ISIS started as a response of destroyed co…

> By helping with tax money I meant supporting the refugees, so. No.

And that's fine for me too, as long as your and mine tax money doesn't go into fueling the war instead, like weapon, military training, sanctions, ...

> It wasn't the West who massacred an unarmed protest with an airstrike back in the day.

It was the "west" that financed the opposition in Syria, and wanted Assad taken over for a long time. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was also the "west" or ISIS (it was called democratic opposition back in the time) that organized this. Wouldn't be the first time. Example: shooting on Maydan square.

> Newsflash: the occupation of Iraq was opposed by most of the "West".

Opposed verbally, as in "I don't want to participate, but I'm fine if you do it, I'll even give you some minor support". And I said "west".

> Rwanda was left alone, oh look how wonderfully that worked.

Rwanda is a place where it went to hell, but I'm pretty sure it would be much worse if "west" intervened. Examples of interventions of "west", and in some cases "east" where local population would be much better if left alone: Afghanistan, Syria, Egypt, Tunis, Lybia, Iraq, Iran, Georgia, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, China, Korea, Hungary, Poland, Chechoslovakia, Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo, Croatia, Australia, Chile, Panama, Honduras, plus many African and Asian states. In all those places foreign intervention brought much more problems than it solved, and is a direct or indirect cause of millions of dead people.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#119

Post by yummyfajitas »

pron wrote: post #117
yummyfajitas wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile the people not in the west get to suffer dire poverty and war. But I guess those folks don't count. I think that most white people in the south also preferred the current, perhaps more subdued reality of segregation to the constant struggles of integration and economic competition with "those people". Is that a valid argument against eliminating mandatory discrimination?

> But I guess those folks don't count. No. But what does helping poor countries have to do with regulation? > Is that a valid argument against eliminating mandatory discrimination? No. As usual you're attributing to me arguments I've never made. I would argue, though, that a person or a group of people have a higher moral responsibility towards a person or a group they've somehow helped reach their current condition.…

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to argue. I interpreted your post above as somehow opposing free trade in labor since "most people in the west prefer..." economic protectionism.

If you were not, my mistake.

As usual you're attributing to me arguments I've never made

Why bring up "most people in $GROUP prefer" if that is not a valid argument in favor of a policy? I truly have no idea what you are trying to claim.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#120

Post by funkyy »

iaskwhy wrote: post #113
funkyy wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am disgusted with the media recently. All western media are portraying this in a A/B approach. Either you accept migrants without hesitation, or you are fascist animal. Discussion is not allowed and despite growing public dislike of the process of accepting undocumented immigrants from war torn country that is full of ISIS fighters. Manipulation (majority of pictures show only women, children and few poorly dressed…

> Unaddressed things like the fact that majority of immigrants are actually safe in Turkey and Lebanon immigrant camps, yet they decide to go to Europe for better life (so its not like they are in danger). This is false and it's easy to confirm, just read a bit about the conditions of these camps, the lack of food, etc, and if you want to see it for yourself, check YouTube, it actually has a lot of in person short do…

> On a side-note, how can someone say something is unaddressed with the amount of information available on the internet? People just need to read a bit when in doubt and stop with false (and dangerous) assumptions.

I meant by mainstream media. They ignore majority of issues and keep misinforming people dependent on old age media.

>This is false and it's easy to confirm...

1) Some camps are actually good suited, its easy to make video/picture of bad state of them - depending on angle - but in general they provide survivable environment - good enough if you run away from your country worrying about your life.

2) Those camps receive huge amounts of foreign aid including cash. We are talking here about hundreds of millions dollars. If the camp is in bad state, then organizations so willingly sending money to those camps should finally start checking where they go. Its easy to throw money at problem through ignorant organization (what was happening in Africa since decades through "charities" completely misusing money), but why common folk in Europe should be taken responsible for their inability to account money they send? Why regular taxpayer needs to pay for mistakes of US, UK, France and Italy governments going in to the wars like in Lybia or Syria? Again, this is no A/B situation, there is many ways to deal with it and one currently offered is probably one of the worst as it will fuel right wing parties to promote separation from EU structures.

And videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFiumADzwdI are of not help as this shows that immigrants intentions might be way off. Even some old Syrian refugees are against current migration explaining, that the only reason for it is to get on social welfare. People that own properties and are considered wealthy in Syria.

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