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Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

johndcook.com

111–120 of 133 posts

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#111
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A small sample size would just imply greater deviation. There's no reason to assume the programmers outside your sample would be x10 better than those in your sample.

That only works when you can assume your sample is representative of the global population. Since people are not evenly distributed according to their abilities, that assumption will not hold.

But in a generalisation, you have to generalise.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#112
post #50
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than that. There is a standard way of assesing programmers productivity and is the worst it could be: kLOC's.

Actually, I've always seen kLOC as a divisor: defects/kLOC, branches/kLOC, etc. Even metrics like functions/kLOC are useful, if you believe in small functions.

We use stats like this to help us gauge the project as a whole, but its considerly likely to be useless for measuring individuals productivity etc.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#113
I think management uses salary to keep people at the company rather than to motivate them to be more productive. And if you're a manager, you want to keep people who have a lot of knowledge of the code that isn't either well captured in automated tests/documentation or easily figured out from looking at their code, ie. crappy programmers. Good programmers are able to write simpler, better tested and documented code so it's less work for others to maintain it if they leave. Paradoxically, if you're working at a 9-5 programming job, you have more incentive to be mediocre than great.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#114
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never meaningfully demonstrated? Have you tried to verify the claim? Go read Peopleware . You will find described very carefully set up coding comparisons that routinely found a factor of 10 productivity difference between different experienced programmers on the same task, and also a discussion of what organizational factors lead to those productivity differences. There is other research on the topic as well. For in…

Well, I just googled the peopleware citation and it seems the study backing this often repeated claim is from the 1960s and people have plenty of questions about its methodology. I'll easily buy 2X or 3X productivity difference. I'm not buying these casually tossed off claims about 10X or 30X productivity differences without the supporting research discussed in detail front and center. Unacknowledged differences of t…

Unacknowledged differences of that magnitude would imply a massive arbitrage opportunity that has persisted for many years.

Only if "programmer productivity" is a primary limiting factor and one can reliably distinguish relative productivity beforehand, both of which strike me as unlikely in most situations.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#115
The last time I was employed I got frustrated with this having deployed 5 applications to customers in a few months on my own, and simply negotiated a contracting role. We came up with a fixed price for each job, bugs included, and I tried to make as much per hour as possible. My hourly rate ended up being >250$/hr, and the application is still in production now 7 years after deploying.

The other comments are correct; if you aren't willing to take any risk, then you don't deserve the benefits. If you think you are good, put your money where your mouth is :)

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#116
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never meaningfully demonstrated? Have you tried to verify the claim? Go read Peopleware . You will find described very carefully set up coding comparisons that routinely found a factor of 10 productivity difference between different experienced programmers on the same task, and also a discussion of what organizational factors lead to those productivity differences. There is other research on the topic as well. For in…

I thought the Peopleware claim was that some teams are 10x more productive than other teams. I could easily buy this, because it's very easy to generate more internal communication work than it produces, i.e. be negatively productive. I'm not sure I buy it for individuals, except in the limiting case of someone completely not knowing what they're doing and having no idea where to start. I guess it's also possible wit…

No, Peopleware's research was on the productivity of individuals at different organizations. To be precise what they did is arranged a series of "coding wars" where multiple organizations would each select 2 individuals and all would code up solutions to the same problem in the language of their choice. People were asked to keep a log of what they did, and describe various things about their environment.

They found an order of 10 productivity difference that showed up under any of a number of possible measures. The also found that the best predictor of a given person's productivity was the productivity of the other person from the same organization. They also identified a number of workplace environment issues that were strongly correlated with productivity.

This overall picture comes with many caveats. Individual productivity differences were still quite significant. They didn't have any way to tell correlation versus causation. (To what extent does a better environment make programmers better, versus correlate with being able to hire and retain them?) The coding assignments were fairly small. So don't read too much into the result.

But given the size of the difference, and that it is one of the few attempts to quantify these issues, it isn't a result to take lightly either.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#117
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel best when I'm deleting other's code, and accomplishing the same thing with much less code.

100% agree with this, less code = less maintenance. Very few people truly understand this and why it's important.

This is why I've never been impressed with people who are supposedly 10x programmers, but are actually people who just hammer out tons of code in response to any given problem.

It strikes me that I'm seemingly one of the few people at my workplace who can handle abstracted functionality comfortable and make use of third party code/libraries without fear.

tl;dr, I wrote a customer service app for my company in about a week flat.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#118
post #41
post #16

The author has not ever worked with the truly 10x more productive programmers. Most people do not get the chance to work with these programmers. They do get paid in proportion to their productivity. There are so many horrible programmers that you can be mediocre and be 10x more productive than the guy next to you. Thus you think you're in the 10x crew. But you really aren't. It's not because you're really that good.…

How did he get that good?

"How did he get that good?"

Ask Justin?

Maybe someone here who knows him can ask him and post the reply, oeven better, ask him to post. Once of the reasons I enjoyed "Coders At work" was that this question in (at least implicitly) answered by some great programmers.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#119
post #65
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i might be proud at first, but then i would be sad to think that others have failed so terribly and with so little guidance or wisdom. i would be saddened by my pitiful pride at a product so limited by its single creator. my proudest moments are when i'm collaborating with such flow that no one knows exactly where each idea came from, and at the end we have a powerful, awesome product that none of us could have built…

You seem to have a very strict requirement for pride; I wasn't aware there was a "pitiful" tier. I feel like life would be pretty depressing if I needed to create something greater than me for the social good that had a purpose just to feel proud of my accomplishment. You can only save the whales once. Anyway, as is the saying, "whatever gets you off". If I've managed to be particularly clever or efficient or solved…

>I wasn't aware there was a "pitiful" tier.

I don't know, I recall an (unnecessarily) hard-coded HTML form in a Django project with extremely poor input validation that somebody I knew wrote. It was a single field, single button form too, I might add.

I refactored it with extreme prejudice.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#120

From the comments: > I’d love to see some metrics on the average life expectancy of a line of code for different programmers. I know that some of my best code was written and has sat there with minimal changes ever since. Now that 's an interesting idea.

I wrote a crappy Python script one afternoon about eight years ago to address a client requirement discovered very close to implementation time. I think it's still running in a production environment -- at least I was told so as of a couple years ago. Was it great code? Nope. It split one file into four based on a particular column's value in a CSV.

Buddy of mine just got done writing a CSV parser at work. Don't really know why though, I remember there being CSV parsers for C#/.NET out there.
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