Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#101

Post by seivan » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:54 PM UTC

songshu wrote: post #29

Misquoting Bart Simpson "If you never experience the abuse, you'll never get desensitized to it", and with that in mind, and talking here only about written abuse, these are my favorite three outcomes for, let's say, my daughter: 1) No one abuses her online 2) People abuse her, she dismisses it as noise 3) People abuse her, and she reacts and attempts to control it I think we should be aiming for number 2.

One could argue that she should never be subjected to it to begin with. It's not bad argument either.

I am not disagreeing with you, just saying you can't expect people not to pick #1 or use #3 to make a buck or two.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#102

Post by Terr_ » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:54 PM UTC

itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

Yeah, maybe I'm just going into old-fogey-hood, but I'd like to repeat a Reddit post from 3-4 years ago involving the definition I use for trolling. There are three core features:

1. Trolling always means the user is, in some way, not sincere or not honest in their interactions

Either they do not believe what they are saying, or else they are saying it only because they have an ulterior motive/goal which is not obvious or apparent. No matter how moronic, argumentative, or misinformed a person might be, they cannot be a troll if they are trying to be honest and their motives are straightforward.

As you leave the context of internet forums and discussions, the words "sincere" and "honest" get trickier to apply. For example, if you are playing a strategy game, the enemy is not "trolling" when they trick you about what kind of army they are building, because that kind of thing doesn't represent a breach of trust..

2. Trolling is always about triggering or goading victims into a reaction

Causing injury or offense to another person is not--on its own--trolling. If a pickpocket steals your wallet and runs away, he did not "troll" you, because he doesn't care about how you react, he just wants to escape with your cash.

If a fast-food employee secretly spits in your hamburger, they are not "trolling" unless they expected you to notice...Or unless they start dropping little hints afterwards to prompt you for a reaction. Major asshole, yes, troll, no.

99% of the time the troll is seeking a reaction with an emotional component. "Negative" reactions such as rage, frustration, or annoyance are especially common.

Not-so-negative reactions can be used, but are less common. For example, an atheist troll might say encouraging things to make a fundamentalist-Christian community enter into a celebratory circle-jerk.

3. Trolling is not the same as humor, trolling can incorporate humor, but only in a "mean-spirited" way

Many people seem to get confused by this, since jokes and humor often fall under both #1 and #2 above, being attempts to use insincere words to cause an emotional reaction.

Trolls are never laughing "with" their victims. They are always laughing "at" their victims.

Trolls may sometimes try to get you to laugh, but if they do it is only because there is some "larger joke" which you are the butt of.

______

Side-note: When people troll badly, I prefer not to call them trolls. This is sort of like how someone who burned a meal isn't "a cook". Sure, they technically did the "act of cooking", but it seems like calling them "a cook" wrongly implies that they are good at it.

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/p7u3k/troll_level_mas...

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#103

Post by pdeuchler » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #28

itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

True enough, but I don't think a semantics debate is helpful. The question is what to do about people who are actually being harassed by bullies.

Because bullies didn't exist before the Internet? I can't wait to tell my kids that I got beat up on the playground before it was cool!

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#104

Post by jon-wood » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

tdees40 wrote: post #22

brotoss wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just defined SJW

SJW is just a lazy slur. It's time to retire it.

If being a warrier of social justice is a slur then bring them on. Could the people who are against speaking out for women and other minorities have picked a more ridiculous phrase to try and make an insult?

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#105

Post by msandford » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #90

partiallypro wrote: post #74

I'm going to disagree. I've been in IRC, Forums, Newsgroups, lurked 4Chan, Reddit, and Slashdot for years. It has actually been evolving to a point, especially among the younger crowd to get bent out of shape about essentially nothing. Maybe that is because more of our lives are online than before, but if you were to go through Twitter and Tumblr and just browse around it is a huge mess of people constantly being off…

Does "Just don't feed the trolls" continue to work in a world where trolls know that SWATting someone is as easy as picking up a phone, and doxxing someone can have significant long-term consequences?

Should we repeal the first amendment because people sometimes used racial or ethnic slurs? Or they deny the moon landing? Or say things that your preferred political party happens to disagree with? Or maybe only things that YOU disagree with?

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#106

Post by angersock » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #90

partiallypro wrote: post #74

I'm going to disagree. I've been in IRC, Forums, Newsgroups, lurked 4Chan, Reddit, and Slashdot for years. It has actually been evolving to a point, especially among the younger crowd to get bent out of shape about essentially nothing. Maybe that is because more of our lives are online than before, but if you were to go through Twitter and Tumblr and just browse around it is a huge mess of people constantly being off…

Does "Just don't feed the trolls" continue to work in a world where trolls know that SWATting someone is as easy as picking up a phone, and doxxing someone can have significant long-term consequences?

If the autoimmune disease of our society is so fucked up that SWATing is a viable tactic, things need to be fixed. If these media outlets spent half as much effort addressing that sort of shortcoming, maybe things would be better.

Instead, they use their power for clickbait, and that means that the few times they do cover it they're dismissed as just another one of those "This unemployed veteran consumed bath salts--you'll never guess what happened next" or "1 easy tip for getting out of criminal charges--the ACLU hates this (white) guy".

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#107

Post by kzhahou » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #24

itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

Pao had thousands of people calling her a ching-chong cunt. Why do you think your comment is relevant to this thread?

Hundreds of thousands strongly disagreement with firing Victoria, and the overall deterioration of the admin relationship. But let's focus on the brats instead.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#108

Post by theseatoms » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:56 PM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #90

partiallypro wrote: post #74

I'm going to disagree. I've been in IRC, Forums, Newsgroups, lurked 4Chan, Reddit, and Slashdot for years. It has actually been evolving to a point, especially among the younger crowd to get bent out of shape about essentially nothing. Maybe that is because more of our lives are online than before, but if you were to go through Twitter and Tumblr and just browse around it is a huge mess of people constantly being off…

Does "Just don't feed the trolls" continue to work in a world where trolls know that SWATting someone is as easy as picking up a phone, and doxxing someone can have significant long-term consequences?

The magnitude of those long-term consequences will have to diminish over time, as incidences increase in frequency. i.e. social progress

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#109

Post by anon3_ » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:56 PM UTC

wxs wrote: post #35

itg wrote: post #13

From what i've seen on reddit, twitter, and sometimes even on hn, some are quick to label people whose opinion differs from theirs as trolls. It doesn't matter if it is a polite or well-though out comment, they are quick to shout the word harassment or whatever -ist allows them to hold some moral high ground.

Did you see the front page of Reddit when they were blowing up at Pao over the fat people abuse subreddit? I think it's disingenuous to claim that this is just polite disagreement: http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2015/6/10/...

I agree that's in bad taste. It gives credence to Pao saying trolls won.

But it's more complicated than it looks. Pao and stuff are giving 0 cares about political correctness being a cancer far more evil than fat hate.

We don't need owners at reddit to act like priest or therapist spreading their "morality". It doesn't work.

Why are jerks like Trump surging? People have had it with the hypocriscy and suppression of truth.

You can't speak simple truths without staking your career on it. Armies on twitter claim to be harassment victims while themselves being criminally harassers [1][2]

[1] http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2015/07/02/the-fact-a... [2] http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/christie-blatchfor...

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#110

Post by rbanffy » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 5:57 PM UTC

brock_r wrote: post #14

wxs wrote: post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

I've seen plenty of horrible Facebook posts as well, real names notwithstanding. The problems run deep. Much older than the internet.

People have lost the fear of being ostracized by their antisocial acts because communities that thrive on such behavior are becoming increasingly easy to find.