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Iron Ring

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Re: Iron Ring

#101

Post by nutmeg »

binarymax wrote: post #23
johlindenbaum wrote: post #6

Sort of relevant: In Canada the word "Engineer" is protected. While I am a Computer Scientist, I can not call myself a Software Engineer (or any form of Engineer), unlike in the US. In Canada you must have graduated from an Engineering College of a University to use the title.

I was at a networking event once, and handed a gentleman my business card. My title listed on the card was 'Software Architect'. He himself was an actual Architect (who designs physical structures), and he became upset and claimed I had absolutely no right to that title. I had never given it much thought until that point, but some folks are very protective over that sort of thing.

I know a software architect who was formerly an actual architect. His Facebook profile says: Architect (Buildings, not computers) and Architect (Computers, not buildings)

Re: Iron Ring

#102

Post by mturmon »

binarymax wrote: post #23
johlindenbaum wrote: post #6

Sort of relevant: In Canada the word "Engineer" is protected. While I am a Computer Scientist, I can not call myself a Software Engineer (or any form of Engineer), unlike in the US. In Canada you must have graduated from an Engineering College of a University to use the title.

I was at a networking event once, and handed a gentleman my business card. My title listed on the card was 'Software Architect'. He himself was an actual Architect (who designs physical structures), and he became upset and claimed I had absolutely no right to that title. I had never given it much thought until that point, but some folks are very protective over that sort of thing.

Thanks for that. Whether or not he was "right", it's salutary to be reminded of the relation of what we do to the more established "professions" requiring licensing, passing exams, and continuing education.

My father was a CPA, and he used to occasionally go on a little rant about the distinction between CPAs and accountants.

Re: Iron Ring

#103

Post by npsimons »

evilduck wrote: post #99
npsimons wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all fairness, there has never been anything quite like "architecting" software, or "engineering" software. As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Or we could just continue working, not caring what other people think. That's usually what I do, after I tell people I'm a "code monkey…

I don't see the issue. Software is very abstract and tons of our vocabulary is stolen from concrete counterparts as metaphors, I can't see how you can object to "architect" without it being totally arbitrary or fundamentally not understanding computers. Just a short list of terms which we've appropriated for software: Bugs that don't bite, computer mice that don't squeak, bits you can't bite, windows you can't see th…

You forgot monkeys that fling code instead of feces ;)

Re: Iron Ring

#104

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

npsimons wrote: post #49
delinka wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to break it to the guy, but if you architect software systems, you are indeed a Software Architect. You're not "an architect," you did not call yourself "an architect," but it's the word that fits the job. Now, if the World of Academia could attempt to catch up with technology (I know, it's a mad mad world that travels at high velocity and may even continue to accelerate, but a guy can dream) and start offerin…

In all fairness, there has never been anything quite like "architecting" software, or "engineering" software. As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Or we could just continue working, not caring what other people think. That's usually what I do, after I tell people I'm a "code monkey…

> As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects.

Developer.

Re: Iron Ring

#105

Post by green7ea »

TheCapn wrote: post #91
joegaudet wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We make the world go round is exactly what the ring is _not_ about. For one, software developers /engineers would be nothing without the computer engineers building the systems the software runs on, and the computer engineers would be nothing without the electrical engineers and device physicists who develop the electrical components from which computers are built... and on and on it goes (turtles the whole way down)…

>- To put monetary compensation second to doing quality work (the reason the ring is worn on the pinky finger far away from your gold wedding band - which it will destroy) Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this incorrect? The ring is to be worn on your dominant hand as to have it rub against the engineering drawings you create/stamp in a more traditional sense of the engineering discipline (before computer aided desi…

The ring will cut through a wedding band made of gold over time. Because of this, it is acceptable for a left handed engineer to wear his ring on his right pinky when necessary.

Re: Iron Ring

#106

Post by nrivadeneira »

npsimons wrote: post #93
nrivadeneira wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated with an ME degree and I now work as a software developer. I find that the traditional engineering coursework is more difficult than what I find with regards to CS. It's pretty easy to become a self-taught developer and even go through the online courses coming from MIT, etc. It's significantly more difficult to do the same for traditional engineering. In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the com…

In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of failure in software doesn't often result in death. That's nice; perhaps you should tell it to the victims of the Therac-25. Or maybe I'll remember it next time I'm writing some real-time software to control something silly like missile guidance. More and more software every day goes into controlling vital systems in our world . . . And how often…

I agree that there is a lot of arrogance in engineering (I can't say I'm innocent either). I think the big difference is that the term "engineer" gets thrown around in software way more than it does in traditional engineering disciplines. The result is that the term "engineer" gets diluted for both software engineers and traditional engineers. That sort of dilution is not common in fields such as mechanical or biomedical engineering.

Having picked up electronics in your spare time, I doubt you'd go around calling yourself an electrical engineer. On the flip side, it happens all the time where self-taught programmers will call themselves software engineers.

Finally, I don't see how you can disagree that software failures don't often result in death. I never said they "never" result in death. It's just that software applications that have life-threatening consequences aren't nearly as common as in traditional engineering. See: cars, bridges, building structure, ropes, pulleys, levers, bolts etc. I'd argue these are more commonplace than missile guidance systems.

Re: Iron Ring

#107

Post by napoleond »

proland wrote: post #95
dsshimel wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also got a BS in MechE, then got a job as a software engineer, so now my girlfriend wears my ethics ring. I guess we're exempt from programming morally!

It is illegal to wear the ring in any fashion if you are not a practicing engineer (as you should have been told when you were obligated).

"Illegal" is probably the wrong word to use here, since the iron ring is not governed by any municipal, provincial, or federal law.

I have a B.Sc. EE and yet work mostly in web/mobile software. I don't consider or present myself as a "practicing engineer" but I still wear the ring as a reminder of the obligation I have towards anything I create for other people to use. I probably wouldn't give it to my girlfriend to wear, but to each their own.

Re: Iron Ring

#108

Post by seanc »

I know a handful of electrical engineers with scars on their fingers from getting these things too close to a hot board.

It's a beautiful idea, but sometimes you don't want a high wattage resistor on your dominant hand...

Re: Iron Ring

#109

Post by nealabq »

kcbanner wrote: post #86
nealabq wrote: post #18

Upon reading this, I wanted one. With inscriptions reminding me of the theoretical and the practical aspects of my craft. Maybe "λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x))" and "10 PRINT "Hello World" 20 GOTO 10". But is that really the point? To proclaim how clever (I imagine) I am. I think the ring is meant to be a reminder that I'm part of something bigger, something important. And that I have a responsibility to other engineer…

You are missing the point. The ring is about your obligation to the public.

Yes, that's well said, and probably the most important part of being part of something greater. Thanks.

Re: Iron Ring

#110

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

nrivadeneira wrote: post #106
npsimons wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of failure in software doesn't often result in death. That's nice; perhaps you should tell it to the victims of the Therac-25. Or maybe I'll remember it next time I'm writing some real-time software to control something silly like missile guidance. More and more software every day goes into controlling vital systems in our world . . . And how often…

I agree that there is a lot of arrogance in engineering (I can't say I'm innocent either). I think the big difference is that the term "engineer" gets thrown around in software way more than it does in traditional engineering disciplines. The result is that the term "engineer" gets diluted for both software engineers and traditional engineers. That sort of dilution is not common in fields such as mechanical or biomed…

cars, bridges, building structure

Those three things right there commonly have embedded software monitoring or controlling them. As far as levers and bolts go, a lot of them have sensors monitored by software for stress.

I really don't think most people, even software developers, realize how pervasive software is in their lives.

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