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Iron Ring

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Re: Iron Ring

#91

Post by TheCapn »

joegaudet wrote: post #82
sergiotapia wrote: post #34

Is there something like this for Software developers? We make the world go round and round; shouldn't we also have something this beautiful?

We make the world go round is exactly what the ring is _not_ about. For one, software developers /engineers would be nothing without the computer engineers building the systems the software runs on, and the computer engineers would be nothing without the electrical engineers and device physicists who develop the electrical components from which computers are built... and on and on it goes (turtles the whole way down)…

>- To put monetary compensation second to doing quality work (the reason the ring is worn on the pinky finger far away from your gold wedding band - which it will destroy)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this incorrect? The ring is to be worn on your dominant hand as to have it rub against the engineering drawings you create/stamp in a more traditional sense of the engineering discipline (before computer aided design).

We were instructed to wear it on the dominant hand. I know with 100% certainty this is true but the reason why is not so certain.

Re: Iron Ring

#92

Post by TheCapn »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #8

Non-Engineers notice my iron ring surprisingly often (ie. "oh my old roommate was an engineer"). It's a great conversation starter.

My girlfriend calls it a cult -Which is partially true if you were to attend the ceremony-. There's an unspoken bond with most engineers that we can get along quite easily when we recognize the ring which adds to the "cult" persona

Re: Iron Ring

#93

Post by npsimons »

nrivadeneira wrote: post #87
npsimons wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a University's CS courses aren't hard, their CS grads will be worthless. Not only that, but if their CS program doesn't include at least the same freshman level classes that the other majors have to take (phys, chem, EE, etc), then their CS grads will be ill-equipped to work in the domains they need to. The attitude you describe of your EE/CE friends very much reminded of a fortune file quote that's been floating…

I graduated with an ME degree and I now work as a software developer. I find that the traditional engineering coursework is more difficult than what I find with regards to CS. It's pretty easy to become a self-taught developer and even go through the online courses coming from MIT, etc. It's significantly more difficult to do the same for traditional engineering. In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the com…

In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of failure in software doesn't often result in death.

That's nice; perhaps you should tell it to the victims of the Therac-25. Or maybe I'll remember it next time I'm writing some real-time software to control something silly like missile guidance. More and more software every day goes into controlling vital systems in our world . . .

And how often do certified professional engineers design something critical? Does every circuit that goes into a consumer electronics device need to be ultra-safe?

I'll grant you, there are a lot of shitty "software engineers" that have no business writing critical software. And many CS programs are severely lacking. But I picked up electronics in high school in my spare time, which makes me about as much an EE as your self-taught development skills make you a software engineer or architect.

What gets me is the arrogance, in particular since the Iron Ring is supposed to carry with it a reminder that everyone is fallible, and to have humility in the face of that. More often than not, things like the iron ring set people apart, for better or for worse. There are plenty of hard things that people's live depend upon that nobody gets accredited for. Having some humility, and empathy, would go a long ways towards making Professional Engineers not just better people, but better Engineers.

Re: Iron Ring

#94

Post by Serow225 »

tonyarkles wrote: post #76
Serow225 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I had the choice of stainless or iron back in 2003 (U of S). They probably just had an old box of iron ones hanging around. They were pretty clear about the tradeoffs, the iron ones were traditional and symbolic, but they rusted and tended to leave orange marks on your fingers (as you might expect).

Are you still in Saskatoon? I'm always interested when I see other usask grads around places like this.

Nope, got sucked into the US for its tech jobs & stayed: Boston > Minnesota > California > Minnesota.

Re: Iron Ring

#95

Post by proland »

dsshimel wrote: post #83
Serow225 wrote: post #62

I got mine in 2003 for a B. Sc in Mechanical Engineering, but since I ended up going to work at a software development company, I decided not to wear it - just felt wrong. This was a personal choice, YMMV :)

I also got a BS in MechE, then got a job as a software engineer, so now my girlfriend wears my ethics ring. I guess we're exempt from programming morally!

It is illegal to wear the ring in any fashion if you are not a practicing engineer (as you should have been told when you were obligated).

Re: Iron Ring

#96

Post by radioxid »

Funnily enough, I found mine in the rotating part of a 2.5" hard drive. I'm happy to learn this is a thing among us engineers!

Re: Iron Ring

#97

Post by peripetylabs »

npsimons wrote: post #20

Perhaps we should have a silicon ring for software engineers. And in case you are thinking "that would break too easily", well that's part of the point: to remind you that software can also be very easily broken, sometimes without even trying :)

A ring cut from a single crystal of silicon may be strong enough. Regardless, it would look very nice.

Re: Iron Ring

#98

Post by herge »

jplmelanson wrote: post #60
yurisagalov wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually don't think that's strictly true. Although there might be a stigma associated with calling yourself an Engineer if you didn't go through an Engineering program, it is only illegal to call yourself a Professional Engineer if you're not properly licensed. Graduating from an Engineering degree (and/or receiving an Iron Ring) has no real legal protection or obligation. The licensing requirements to become a Pr…

In Quebec, the title is simply "Engineer". Upon finishing an accredited program, the ring is delivered in a ceremony. After graduation and deliverance of the diploma, one can register with the professional order and call himself "Junior Engineer". This gives the right to practice engineering under supervision by an Engineer for a minimum period of 2 years (3 years min. without supervision). Before requesting the righ…

> There is currently no widespread recognition of the profession in the IT community. We almost never see any job posting requiring the title, or any company giving additional compensation/responsabilities because of the title.

The main difference between a comp sci. degree and a software eng. degree when I graduated in Quebec (circa 2007) was mostly courses about rational rose and the waterfall process. Software Engineer is a nice title and all, but I don't see its advantages over a comp sci. degree.

Re: Iron Ring

#99

Post by evilduck »

npsimons wrote: post #49
delinka wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to break it to the guy, but if you architect software systems, you are indeed a Software Architect. You're not "an architect," you did not call yourself "an architect," but it's the word that fits the job. Now, if the World of Academia could attempt to catch up with technology (I know, it's a mad mad world that travels at high velocity and may even continue to accelerate, but a guy can dream) and start offerin…

In all fairness, there has never been anything quite like "architecting" software, or "engineering" software. As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Or we could just continue working, not caring what other people think. That's usually what I do, after I tell people I'm a "code monkey…

I don't see the issue. Software is very abstract and tons of our vocabulary is stolen from concrete counterparts as metaphors, I can't see how you can object to "architect" without it being totally arbitrary or fundamentally not understanding computers.

Just a short list of terms which we've appropriated for software:

Bugs that don't bite, computer mice that don't squeak, bits you can't bite, windows you can't see through, desktops which do not involve desks, perls you can't wear, pythons which are neither British or snakes, rubies which are not red, gnu's which do not roam plains, dog-fooding which involves neither dogs or food, running which does not involve feet, killing things which does not involve death, zombies which are real, frameworks which do not involve lumber, libraries which do not involve books, bricks which cannot be built with, ajax you cannot clean with, bandaids that do not stop bleeding, androids which are not humanoid, chatting without talking, hits that are not violent, etc.

Re: Iron Ring

#100

Post by joegaudet »

TheCapn wrote: post #91
joegaudet wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We make the world go round is exactly what the ring is _not_ about. For one, software developers /engineers would be nothing without the computer engineers building the systems the software runs on, and the computer engineers would be nothing without the electrical engineers and device physicists who develop the electrical components from which computers are built... and on and on it goes (turtles the whole way down)…

>- To put monetary compensation second to doing quality work (the reason the ring is worn on the pinky finger far away from your gold wedding band - which it will destroy) Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this incorrect? The ring is to be worn on your dominant hand as to have it rub against the engineering drawings you create/stamp in a more traditional sense of the engineering discipline (before computer aided desi…

It is true, but at the time they came up with this tradition left handed people didn't really exist :P That is to say if you were left handed you were made to be right handed.
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