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US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

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Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#101

Post by ahmedfromtunis »

Boxxed wrote: post #78
ahmedfromtunis wrote: post #74

I recently read "Chip War" and it talked about an era (around the 80s and 90s) were american dominance on electronics (and economy) seemed in deep decline. Japan was the next big thing. But the collective efforts of some government agencies, academia and the private sector helped reverse the trend. American dominance is sure not a given but with an almost century of inertia, all hope is not lost (especially compared…

> But the collective efforts of some government agencies, academia and the private sector helped reverse the trend. Well that's the key. The current administration is doing its best to sabotage science.

I get it. But what I'm saying is that the impact of a single misguided administration, while can be very devastating, is not enough to write off american super power status in research.

With appropriate planning and funding, the next administration can definitely reverse the trend.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#102

Post by estearum »

embedding-shape wrote: post #99
meowface wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's very likely counterfactually better than USSR (now Russian) or Chinese hegemony. Imagine if Al Gore had won 2000 - America at the helm while growing increasingly wary of violent foreign interventions seems like the least bad path for Earth. (I am not sure if such a path still remains.) China ultra-liberalizing and becoming a democracy and then the hegemon could be an okay path but I am not too optimistic…

> I think it's very likely counterfactually better than USSR (now Russian) or Chinese hegemony. Why is it either or the other? Just because the US happens to turn inwards and stop acting like the world police, doesn't mean that other countries suddenly start dreaming of world domination. China and Russian both have plenty of problems in their home fronts and surrounding areas.

That has never stopped Russia before

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#103

Post by xmprt »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #24
meowface wrote: post #15

All I can say is let us all hope this is merely the American decade of humiliation and not the beginning of the American century of humiliation.

It might be what it takes though, 2nd place (if that), to get the U.S. to stop fucking around.

To be fair, it was pretty much the entire western world fucking around before. Brexit was the first shock but I don't think the world learned many lessons from that. However a lot of western nations are taking the US as a cautionary tale and will learn from US mistakes. So 2nd place might be lucky at this point (assuming we're comparing large trading blocs rather than just countries).

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#104

Post by CursedSilicon »

adventured wrote: post #61
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The greatest era of prosperity expansion and peace in world history courtesy of pax Americana. The best decades - measurably - for humanity overall have taken place since the US assumed that role post WW2.

Henry Kissinger? I thought you died!

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#105

Post by djaouen »

embedding-shape wrote: post #93
djaouen wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I have to say is, don’t blame me. I am an American and didn’t vote for this bullsh*t. Leave me out when you enslave the rest of the Americans lol

> I am an American and didn’t vote for this bullsh*t. Isn't the whole principle about democracy and freedom that you all stick together no matter what political party/parties is in power? If you're just throwing your hands up in the air because your party isn't the one in control, what kind of democracy is that? The whole point is working together with opponents for common goals. Otherwise, may I interest you in an i…

> The whole point is working together with opponents for common goals.

When your opponent wants you dead, it's a different story! I am just exercising my right to self-defense.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#106

Post by ku-man »

meowface wrote: post #81
lbrito wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? China is the alternative. How many countries has China waged war against, toppled democratic governments, established puppet março-states and invaded since 1949?

It could be the case that they become the hegemon and don't ever conquer anyone besides Taiwan and it still sucks due to how they treat ~20% of the Earth's population (their own citizens). A liberal, democratic China becoming the hegemon is very possibly better than the status quo (especially under Trump and with the surge of far-right mainstreaming in the US), but China as it is now cannot be trusted to be a good st…

[dead]

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#107

Post by cgio »

robswc wrote: post #72
adamhartenz wrote: post #8

For a country thats whole personallity is "winning" and that lates losers, The USA is very good a setting itself up to lose every race.

What is US losing, relative to Europe/other countries? I can't really think of many notable things to come out of Europe as of late... besides maybe covid vaccines but its hard to really say that when 90% of the wikipedia page for the "creators" is about research and contributions that they did (and could really only do) in the US.

You allude to it yourself in your example. People, from all over the world, were doing research in the US, because that’s the only place they could really do it. Now that this option is disappearing, the system will have to adjust and find another place. When that happens, US loses. Until it does, we all do.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#108

Post by adonovan »

klodolph wrote: post #62
meowface wrote: post #15

All I can say is let us all hope this is merely the American decade of humiliation and not the beginning of the American century of humiliation.

I hope it’s like what happened to countries like England, France, and Spain. You see your empire collapse but the country itself remains intact. England “gave up” scientific and technological leadership during the 20th century. (That’s a tongue-in-cheek take on it, don’t read too much into it.)

> England “gave up” scientific and technological leadership during the 20th century. (That’s a tongue-in-cheek take on it, don’t read too much into it.)

Was forced to give up, due to the economic devastation of WWII, might be more accurate (though of course there were other factors too).

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#109

Post by adventured »

sallveburrpi wrote: post #53
throw-the-towel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As bad as American domination is, wnat's coming after is might easily be worse.

Worse for US Americans probably - rest of the world? Not so clear cut

The greatest timeline for Europe in its history? Post WW2 to now.

The greatest timeline for Latin America overall? Post WW2 to now.

The greatest timeline for Oceania overall? Post WW2 to now.

The greatest timeline for India? Post WW2 to now.

The greatest timeline for the rest of Asia overall? Post WW2 to now.

Coming up on 80 years. Here's a short list, please tell me which prior ~80 year period in history these nations had it better overall for their people.

Britain, Ireland, Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania, Poland, Switzerland, Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Greece, Slovakia, Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria. Russia, Turkey, Kazakhstan. Australia, New Zealand, Canada. China, Japan, Indonesia, India, Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, the Philippines, Thailand. Mexico, Colombia, Brazil, Peru, Chile, Uruguay, Costa Rica, Panama. Israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain.

Just most of the world population in that little list.

Even Russia - the people of Russia have far higher standards of living at the median today than they have at any other point in their history. It's not even remotely close.

'But but but the world isn't perfect.' No kidding.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#110

Post by meowface »

estearum wrote: post #100
meowface wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is the most likely outcome. However, if the decline starts occurring too rapidly, I do think violent far-right (and perhaps far-left) paramilitary action could become a major problem, like in 1920s/1930s Germany. Tons of time spent lurking in far-right extremist communities out of morbid curiosity, and the spread of far-right ethnosupremacist sentiment on basically every social media platform, has me con…

The good news is those people are fundamentally absolute losers.

Yes, nearly all of them absolutely are. (I have talked to many of them and they really truly are.) That fact does genuinely assuage my concerns. Still, I do wonder if a future charismatic far-right politician who does not come across as a loser could do far better than previous generations ever could have predicted. The worst possible person at the worst possible time.
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