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Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

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Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#101

Post by JuniperMesos »

mustyoshi wrote: post #50
wiseowise wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far are you willing to stretch this? What about skin color? Nationality? Religion?

Not the guy you're responding to but I'm not going to willingly pay money for pork rind ads to be shown to Muslims. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest that should be illegal as a hate crime.

Under that legal regime I could imagine Meta being simultaneously sued by one group of people for not discriminating enough on one demographic category, and by another group of people for discriminating too much along a different category. And this ultimately why I would like to see these kinds of laws repealed completely.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#102

Post by rpdillon »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #93
fastball wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is hiding anything. But the point about not being owed a job is that even if they were "hiding" something, that wouldn't be a problem. You are not owed visibility of a job in the same way you are not owed the job itself.

This is not true, at least in Europe. There exists well-established anti-discriminatory law, which dictates equal opportunity in employment. When targeted advertising is based only on demographic signals, it creates strong information asymmetry. Let’s say someone is not actively looking for a job, but gets information about new opportunities through ads more frequently, than someone else with same skills but differen…

> invest considerably more resources

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we just talking about going to a job board and searching for the job you're interested in?

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#103

Post by em-bee »

rowanG077 wrote: post #87
tmoertel wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but: This is actually a thorny problem. Say you have an advertising system that knows nothing about a user’s gender. This system, by construction, cannot vary its ad selections based on gender. But the system does remember whether users have expressed interest in the ads it has previously shown them. Now say you have a job that in general appeals to one gender almost exclusively. The system will, given ti…

Taken to its logical conclusion you essentially have to make targeted ads illegal. Now it's gender, next it's race, then it's socioeconomic standing. Then it's age. Etc etc.

for job ads that is exactly right. discrimination in hiring is already illegal, and therefore logically targeted jobs ads are illegal too.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#104

Post by rpdillon »

standardUser wrote: post #36
seneca wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you show me a lower paying girl job instead of a higher paying boy job, and I apply for and get the girl job, how is the company tricking me into applying for the lower paying job based on my gender not a problem to you? How as I not harmed by having a better opportunity hidden from me based on my presumed gender? Not highlighting something to you is not the same as hiding it from you. If you want a job atypical…

You seem to be suggesting that companies should be allowed to trick us so long as there is some conceivable amount of work we can do individually to uncover the trick. But because society exists for people and not companies, most of us prefer laws that stop companies from tricking us in the first place.

I don't understand where there's a trick.

Why is this not as simple as going to a job board and searching for the job that you want?

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#105

Post by rpdillon »

tremon wrote: post #10
jl6 wrote: post #5

Are these ads in the sense of unsolicited adverts, or is this some kind of job search engine where people are actively asking Facebook to find a job for them?

Why does that distinction matter?

Not highlighting something is different than hiding it.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#106

Post by em-bee »

rpdillon wrote: post #96
hydrogen7800 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All discrimination can be described as "revealed preference". A very convenient way of ignoring systemic harm.

You would need to connect men not being as prevalent in child care profession roles to some sort of systemic harm. Or women not being as prevalent in construction worker roles. Just because there's a discrepancy between the two genders doesn't mean there's systemic harm stemming from it.

the harm in child care and education should be obvious: children need role models of both genders. in no other profession is it as important for gender parity to be enforced. so at least in that area there is most certainly a systemic harm if one gender dominates.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#107

Post by rpdillon »

handoflixue wrote: post #84
inglor_cz wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always claim harm, but proving it is a different story. Policies like that are based on results of psychological research such as "stereotype threat", which has recently fallen victim to the reproducibility crisis. In other words, the entire social engineering structure of such laws may be a house built on sand.

Having fewer opportunities is obviously a harm. If it's NOT harm, then it should be legal for job boards to only show positions to the desired gender, right?

How does what is advertised to you affect your opportunities? Opportunities are things that are available to you. Obviously people can seek out opportunities. They don't have to have them thrust in front of them.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#108

Post by em-bee »

mustyoshi wrote: post #50
wiseowise wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far are you willing to stretch this? What about skin color? Nationality? Religion?

Not the guy you're responding to but I'm not going to willingly pay money for pork rind ads to be shown to Muslims. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest that should be illegal as a hate crime.

only if the ads are targeted specifically at muslims. otherwise such ads would be offensive even if posted on streets in cities where muslims live.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#109

Post by ivan_gammel »

rpdillon wrote: post #102
ivan_gammel wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true, at least in Europe. There exists well-established anti-discriminatory law, which dictates equal opportunity in employment. When targeted advertising is based only on demographic signals, it creates strong information asymmetry. Let’s say someone is not actively looking for a job, but gets information about new opportunities through ads more frequently, than someone else with same skills but differen…

> invest considerably more resources Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we just talking about going to a job board and searching for the job you're interested in?

Let’s say you have group A and group B, both of which have suitable candidates for the job. The information about the job is available via pull (job boards) and push (ads) channels. A has access to both channels, B only to pull. In this case A has statistically higher chances to get that job than B, if they have no other differences. If B is already disadvantaged, this just increases the gap.

Your question is, in this model, why pull isn’t covering the absence of push (i.e. pull conversion >> push conversion). But that is obvious: if it was the case, there would be no need to spend money on ads. The very existence of those ads confirms that push channel is significant. And that means that platform does pre-screening of candidates based on gender, which is illegal.

Re: Facebook enables gender discrimination in job ads: European human rights body

#110

Post by nkmnz »

handoflixue wrote: post #89
nkmnz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I advertise my golfing equipment only in golf clubs, and golf clubs happen to be predominantly visited by old white men, am I discriminating against the young, against women, and against people of color?

There's a big difference between first-order and second-order effects. If you explicitly check the box that says "show this job only to old white men" then we can prove your intent was to discriminate. If you advertise at a golf club, we have no such proof. Also, unless the golf club is discriminating, female golfers are just as able to see the ad -vs- male golfers.

Meta does not provide such a checkbox for explicit gender selection in Europe for job adds - it’s forbidden by law. But you can select interest, such as golfing. If more men happen to be interested in golf, more men will see your add.
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