Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Own-goal football (2022)

generalist.academy

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 185 posts

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#101

Post by Buttons840 »

munificent wrote: post #13
divan wrote: post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

The meta-game of game design: how do you design a game whose mechanics lead to incentives that align with your intentions is a fascinating area. It also has deep connections to policy design in politics. In the political arena, it gets so much more complex because you have disagreement on intentions and people deliberately obfuscating their intentions. So you've got people arguing over legislation who are trying to a…

A closely related question is: Should playing the fun way, and playing the optimal way be the same thing? I used to think think the answer was yes, but Spelunky 2 made me doubt; in Spelunky using a bomb or a rope is rarely optimal, but it can make things simpler and more fun. I think it's a well designed game, so the fact that optimal play and fun play are different is making me think.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#102

Post by drowsspa »

dylan604 wrote: post #87
smcl wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what country and in what sport? Was it younger kids, maybe? I'm not doubting you, I'm genuinely curious because this is incredibly bizarre to me. I dug around on wikipedia and found a couple of dozen examples of some unusual points scoring given[0] but only a handful of smaller US leagues long in the past featured this bonus-points-per-goal system, and seemingly only ever for a short period (experiment?) Thinking…

Between actually getting work done and looking for a way to provide an answer, I've had a hard time getting a link to send. The closest I've come is a scoring method called 10 Point System where it's slight different in W=6 points, D=3 points, bonus point per goal (max 3), bonus point for shut out. So I could have mis-remembered the points I initially stated. It's been 10+ years since I've participated in those tourn…

I think the lesson here is just "American-specific rules", not "Central Europe specific rules". In Latin America I never heard of it either

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#103

Post by dylan604 »

smcl wrote: post #94
dylan604 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between actually getting work done and looking for a way to provide an answer, I've had a hard time getting a link to send. The closest I've come is a scoring method called 10 Point System where it's slight different in W=6 points, D=3 points, bonus point per goal (max 3), bonus point for shut out. So I could have mis-remembered the points I initially stated. It's been 10+ years since I've participated in those tourn…

That's cool, I had absolutely no idea! So while I may have suggested in other comments that I didn't love European FAs fiddling with the offside rule and VAR, I do appreciate a bit of innovation and creativity and it sounds like the US is willing to experiment which is great to see. I happily retract my earlier confident assertion about how points work in groups/leagues :) On another note, I've really enjoyed seeing…

Just to tack on more as I've knocked some cobwebs loose, the UIL also did their penalty shoot outs similar to hockey where the ball was put in play some 20 yards out and the attacker allowed to dribble the ball and the keeper was allowed to challenge. In the early days of the MLS, they did this as well. When MLS did away with that non-sense, the UIL followed as well.

US Soccer (official FIFA member) was apparently so concerned that soccer would not be accepted that they were willing to experiment with rules to make things more "exciting". UIL did things because Texas is just so entrenched with Friday Night Lights football, that things had to be brought into alignment with their understanding (tongue planted firmly in cheek). After all, it is using their field! Also, the organization of officials in UIL sports (Texas Association of Sports Officials - TASO) is kind of weird. Once you become an official of one sport, you can easily become an official of another sport with no experience necessary. Naturally, a lot of the throwball referees crossed over to football officiating in the early days. As the UIL game garnered more respect, better officials started to make their way, but the rules are still some mishmash hybrid gene spliced 100% GMO'd version.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#104

Post by hgsgm »

divan wrote: post #90
cafard wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, neither the high jump nor the pole vault ever had hard landing areas. I'm sure that foam rubber is a lot better than dried cow manure, but guys were still going way over 6' in the jump and 15' in the vault before foam rubber came along.

Right, but I can come up with an infinite number of examples. Take javelin throw – the essential skill is, well, throwing a javelin. There are many things that can theoretically be measured – distance, height, speed, jiggling, precision, throwing efficiency. For some reasons (historical, practical) distance was chosen. So now javelin throwers are good at distances but not at anything else. Like it's obvious that if y…

Mammoths travel in herd, so accuracy isn't very important.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#105

Post by a_c »

divan wrote: post #39
furyofantares wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also interesting is how lots of rules have standard penalties - and this turns them into potential strategic components rather than something you aren't allowed to do. It's not cheating to break these rules, it's considered part of the game.

Yeah, that's kinda expected. But what I'm more worried about in sports is when metrics(rules) become engrained in that sports culture and start shaping the sport itself. Like, if an athletics high-jump champion has to jump over a fence with concrete ground – would s/he be still the best in the world? Probably not, because they're focusing on the Fosberry flop technique which works only in a competition setting with a…

I see it as a principal agent problem [0]. The agent being the sport players working according the game rules to maximize their gains. It could be pouring countless hours into mastering the sport, studying the rules to come up with best strategies [1], deliberately losing (e.g. for bribery), among others. The principal(s) are the perceived sportsmanship, while ill defined, of a particular sports

It also happens to software engineering. The value of your code is solely depends on how many times it is being willingly run. Be it people using it happily or another piece of code is calling it without caveats. But we come up with all sorts of metrics, DORA, SPACE, developer experience, what not. For most family/small business, like restaurants, groceries, builders, etc, the only thing that matters are customers willing to return. Somehow people think that by mimicking what big companies' management practice does can makes you one of the big companies. While the most important thing, making things that people want, is grossly overlooked. People used to make fun of MBAs parachuting into management right out of school. That trademark is certainly open to all titles now.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh5c3duQQ1w

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#106

Post by freetime2 »

kodt wrote: post #88
soldarnal wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The game clock is one of the more common rules that tends to warp gameplay in this way, with teams that are ahead trying to avoid play and run out the clock rather than continue to engage in the contest. The other team, meanwhile, resorts to increasingly desperate tactics like pulling the goalie, intentionally committing fouls, or laterals and trying for the onside kick. Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam_En…

The end of American Football games is so frustrating because of this, with a team just constantly taking a knee to run out the clock. It makes the last 2 minutes of the game useless. Constant fouls in Basketball hoping the opposing team will miss a free throw is another frustrating tactic that drags the last 2 minutes on forever, in what is usually a forgone conclusion anyway.

I find clock management to be an interesting aspect of the game in American Football, because literally every second counts. It's one of the things that separates elite players and coaches from everyone else. Tom Brady, for example, was renowned for his ability to move the ball down the field and score in the last two minutes of a game.

Sure sometimes it means the game is effectively over 2 minutes early if the leading team gets possession and the trailing team has no timeouts remaining. But in that case it just has the effect of shifting the decisive moment a little bit earlier (if it's a close game). And the rare games that end with 0 seconds on the clock on a game winning touchdown or field goal are truly memorable.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#107

Post by dylan604 »

drowsspa wrote: post #99
dylan604 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Edit: >though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties As a referee, when a tournament is on the last day, it is not uncommon to hear various tournament officials saying within earshot of the refs "we need winners". This is of course a plausible deniab…

That must be very US-specific, it just sounds American. But the 3 point thing definitely has nothing to do with this oddity of scoring

then why not 1-0 scores?

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#108

Post by munificent »

andrewflnr wrote: post #93
kevinmchugh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For games at least, attempting to be highly prescriptive in the rules risks strangling the game. Basketball was designed to be played without dribbling. By the time players started single-handed dribbling it was pretty clear what's the more interesting, exciting game to watch and play

What, it was supposed to be pass-only, like ultimate frisbee?

Yeah, reading the original rules, that's exactly how it sounds.

And then some Yale players realized they could "pass it to themselves" by moving while it bounced off the floor.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#109

Post by jamiek88 »

drowsspa wrote: post #100
LanceH wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not talking pro leagues, but the kinds of leagues where you make a team and sign up for a weekend tournament. That scoring system is very common.

Is it? I'm Brazilian and I never heard of it.

I’m English and I haven’t either.

I’ve also played in UK, Middle East, Spain, France, USA and Canada.

From organized leagues to games with mates and pub type tournaments and have never come across that convoluted system.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#110

Post by smcl »

dylan604 wrote: post #103
smcl wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's cool, I had absolutely no idea! So while I may have suggested in other comments that I didn't love European FAs fiddling with the offside rule and VAR, I do appreciate a bit of innovation and creativity and it sounds like the US is willing to experiment which is great to see. I happily retract my earlier confident assertion about how points work in groups/leagues :) On another note, I've really enjoyed seeing…

Just to tack on more as I've knocked some cobwebs loose, the UIL also did their penalty shoot outs similar to hockey where the ball was put in play some 20 yards out and the attacker allowed to dribble the ball and the keeper was allowed to challenge. In the early days of the MLS, they did this as well. When MLS did away with that non-sense, the UIL followed as well. US Soccer (official FIFA member) was apparently so…

Ahhh I see, so some of the experiments might have not even been deliberate in the end. Either way that's an interesting bit of history, I'm glad to have learned about it!

I'm about to re-enter the game aged 37 years old (not played in ~1.5 yrs) this weekend with trials for a little local very-very minor team here. No idea how it'll go but I'm curious to see if my legs can carry me for one more season :D

Post reply on HN