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Own-goal football (2022)

generalist.academy

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Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#91

Post by smcl »

brycekahle wrote: post #89
smcl wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're not interested in promotion and relegation maybe a national cup competition, like the FA Cup in England, could be one fun way to have some level of integration with the other levels. The excitement of cup competitions would boost attendance across the board, and fun moments like cup upsets (a lower tier team defeating a top-tier one) raise the profile of the sport overall through media exposure. It's maybe…

Such a tournament already exists, called the U.S. Open Cup[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Open_Cup

Oh amazing! Shows my ignorance of the game outside my little bubble, but I'm delighted to learn of its existence!

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#92

Post by jacquesm »

divan wrote: post #90
cafard wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, neither the high jump nor the pole vault ever had hard landing areas. I'm sure that foam rubber is a lot better than dried cow manure, but guys were still going way over 6' in the jump and 15' in the vault before foam rubber came along.

Right, but I can come up with an infinite number of examples. Take javelin throw – the essential skill is, well, throwing a javelin. There are many things that can theoretically be measured – distance, height, speed, jiggling, precision, throwing efficiency. For some reasons (historical, practical) distance was chosen. So now javelin throwers are good at distances but not at anything else. Like it's obvious that if y…

There are lots of real world examples of this same phenomenon and they usually result in ridiculous losses combined with minor gains on one parameter. Balance is the key but we tend to reward the specialists (records, finances). People always want to know who is 'best' at something. Triathlon is one attempt to break this but even there it is all quite physical. Chessboxing is another :)

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#93

Post by andrewflnr »

kevinmchugh wrote: post #52
munificent wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The meta-game of game design: how do you design a game whose mechanics lead to incentives that align with your intentions is a fascinating area. It also has deep connections to policy design in politics. In the political arena, it gets so much more complex because you have disagreement on intentions and people deliberately obfuscating their intentions. So you've got people arguing over legislation who are trying to a…

For games at least, attempting to be highly prescriptive in the rules risks strangling the game. Basketball was designed to be played without dribbling. By the time players started single-handed dribbling it was pretty clear what's the more interesting, exciting game to watch and play

What, it was supposed to be pass-only, like ultimate frisbee?

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#94

Post by smcl »

dylan604 wrote: post #87
smcl wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what country and in what sport? Was it younger kids, maybe? I'm not doubting you, I'm genuinely curious because this is incredibly bizarre to me. I dug around on wikipedia and found a couple of dozen examples of some unusual points scoring given[0] but only a handful of smaller US leagues long in the past featured this bonus-points-per-goal system, and seemingly only ever for a short period (experiment?) Thinking…

Between actually getting work done and looking for a way to provide an answer, I've had a hard time getting a link to send. The closest I've come is a scoring method called 10 Point System where it's slight different in W=6 points, D=3 points, bonus point per goal (max 3), bonus point for shut out. So I could have mis-remembered the points I initially stated. It's been 10+ years since I've participated in those tourn…

That's cool, I had absolutely no idea! So while I may have suggested in other comments that I didn't love European FAs fiddling with the offside rule and VAR, I do appreciate a bit of innovation and creativity and it sounds like the US is willing to experiment which is great to see. I happily retract my earlier confident assertion about how points work in groups/leagues :)

On another note, I've really enjoyed seeing the game over there going from strength to strength, I hope you're enjoying it too and continue to stay involved at some level!

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#95

Post by NikolaNovak »

divan wrote: post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

There was a period in world rally championship where it was beneficial not to win day one or day two of a 3 day championship.

This resulted in hilarious but rational situations where top racers would race like maniacs for the entire day, then 200meters before the end of the a last stage of the day slow down and crawl for say 12 seconds, so they would come a second behind somebody else and not lead the pack the next day (leading the pack effectively means clearing the path on gravel roads for the rest of the racers)

It was meant to even the field by handicapping the front runners (the Mario kart approach I suppose). But it backfired spectacularly.

I think they went back to randomization after that.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#96

Post by [deleted] »

smcl wrote: post #84
WorldMaker wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has second, third, and fourth tier leagues already, though those are all part of USL rather than MLS. MLS has a lot more money than USL and isn't interested in promotion/relegation concepts because it is built like MLB/NBA and likes the gatekeeping aspects of those because that influences investment money and helps keep MLS comparatively rich. But USL thinks promotion/relegation could work in the US, they just…

If they're not interested in promotion and relegation maybe a national cup competition, like the FA Cup in England, could be one fun way to have some level of integration with the other levels. The excitement of cup competitions would boost attendance across the board, and fun moments like cup upsets (a lower tier team defeating a top-tier one) raise the profile of the sport overall through media exposure. It's maybe…

[deleted]

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#97

Post by golemiprague »

7373737373 wrote: post #11

One other weird thing: When a soccer player who is not a goalkeeper prevents a goal by catching the ball with their hands, they "just" get a red card and the attacking team a penalty, even if they would have certainly scored otherwise. Luis Suarez successfully used this in the 2010 World Cup quarter-finals in the Uruguay vs Ghana game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-29hy-Qyw - Ghana missed the penalty, which led…

[dead]

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#98

Post by hgsgm »

kodt wrote: post #88
soldarnal wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The game clock is one of the more common rules that tends to warp gameplay in this way, with teams that are ahead trying to avoid play and run out the clock rather than continue to engage in the contest. The other team, meanwhile, resorts to increasingly desperate tactics like pulling the goalie, intentionally committing fouls, or laterals and trying for the onside kick. Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam_En…

The end of American Football games is so frustrating because of this, with a team just constantly taking a knee to run out the clock. It makes the last 2 minutes of the game useless. Constant fouls in Basketball hoping the opposing team will miss a free throw is another frustrating tactic that drags the last 2 minutes on forever, in what is usually a forgone conclusion anyway.

You are allowed to go to the kitchen after 58minutes.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#99

Post by drowsspa »

dylan604 wrote: post #58
smcl wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're talking about some extremely niche tournament, that's not how it works at all, in football at least. In the majority of league systems you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and that's it . If you are level on points with another team in your group after all games are played then there will be strictly defined rules for that tournament to separate the teams, often a combination of the following…

Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Edit: >though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties As a referee, when a tournament is on the last day, it is not uncommon to hear various tournament officials saying within earshot of the refs "we need winners". This is of course a plausible deniab…

That must be very US-specific, it just sounds American. But the 3 point thing definitely has nothing to do with this oddity of scoring

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#100

Post by drowsspa »

LanceH wrote: post #78
Denvercoder9 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Where? I've never seen or heard of this scoring system being used in continental Europe (not even in the little kids leagues), and it's also not what's used in the professional tournaments (World Cup, Euros, Copa America, Champions League, etc).

He's not talking pro leagues, but the kinds of leagues where you make a team and sign up for a weekend tournament. That scoring system is very common.

Is it? I'm Brazilian and I never heard of it.
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