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Second-Order Thinking

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101–110 of 266 posts

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#101
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. It describes 2nd order and above in contrast to the immediate effects of a decision. The 2nd order effect may be in 5s time or even immediate but not a direct consequence of the original action.

how is that not long term thinking?

Because second order can also be immediate, it just may not be a direct intention of the action.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#102
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. It describes 2nd order and above in contrast to the immediate effects of a decision. The 2nd order effect may be in 5s time or even immediate but not a direct consequence of the original action.

how is that not long term thinking?

> > The 2nd order effect may be in 5s time

> how is that not long term thinking?

What does "long term" mean to you ... 5s (i.e. 5 seconds) is pretty short term to me.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#103
post #68

IMO the problem is the perception that fast thinkers or fast decision makers are smart folks. I know a lots of people who would not give instant answers to problems, they will be always "I will come back to this, let me think through". They give much better solve, but take time. But we are surrounded by people who want fast solutions.

You have to define 'better'. If an entity can process their OODA loop faster than competing entities, they will have an advantage.

I agree with you that people who are quick to talk in meetings can sometimes incorrectly come across as smarter, but I caution you to completely discount speed.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#104
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. It describes 2nd order and above in contrast to the immediate effects of a decision. The 2nd order effect may be in 5s time or even immediate but not a direct consequence of the original action.

how is that not long term thinking?

It is long term thinking. But long term thinking is not necessarily 2nd order thinking. It's basically good long term thinking, where you don't just come up with a plan that addresses a problem, but you also enumerate all the secondary effects, and the effects of those effects, etc. Any good long term thinking would do that, but it's not always clear if people really have thought it through.

If someone says ban ICE vehicles so that we might have better air quality and reduced rate of climate change, have they taken into account what the economic, cultural and political ramifications of such legislation would be? They might have, someone might have, but definitely not everyone has. Who had "Texas secedes from the USA" on their list of possible outcomes of their long term plan for addressing climate change?

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#105
post #12

This is just "long term thinking". I would say the article isn't worth reading. But at least, it's a good reminder to focus on thinking about the long term consequences of actions/decisions.

In my day job, I encounter a lot of suggested solutions from my team and colleagues that will not succeed for various reasons.

Just because we will not discover those failures until after the implementation in a couple of weeks does not make my better solutions "long term thinking".

Long term thinking is "will this solution that will work perfectly fine right now, still be the right solution in 2023"

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#106
post #38

Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One by economist Thomas Sowell[0] explores this in good detail, applying it to political and economic policies, in his book. Housing policies, medicare and today's problem of defund the police can be better analysed if the framework of second-order thinking is used to view the pros and cons of such policies and their subsequent ramifications. Second-order thinking is a great m…

Another similar book is "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt [1]:

> From this aspect, therefore, the whole of economics can be reduced to a single lesson, and that lesson can be reduced to a single sentence. The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate hut at the longer effects of any act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups.

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Economics-One-Lesson-Shortest-Underst...

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#107
I dislike this framing because it frames thinking and planning ahead as next-level intelligence when it's patience and wisdom masquerading as smartness.

A better spin would be, "Stupid? Use this one weird trick (thinking, planning, and acting long-term) to outperform smart people every time!"

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#109
post #97
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not particularily familiar with the connotation of the term second-order-thinking , but to me it implies the somewhat mathematical meaning of it. The first order might be some value (e.g. a voltage) and the second order might be the rate with which that voltage changes and the third the rate with which this rate changes etc. To me this implies that thinking on a higher order is somewhat about stepping back and v…

'order' has many meanings in mathematics, and I'm not sure of the best metaphor that is actually called an order there, but when people talk colloquially about 'second order effects' etc. IME they mean something like a vertex v2 (doing something) in response to a change to v1, where there exists a vertex vj and edges (v1, vj) & (vj, v2) - and implicitly no edge (v1, v2). Higher 'orders' similarly extending the chain.…

IMHO, the figure of speech "n-th order" generally comes from Taylor series approximation, where n-th term is indeed expressed using n-th derivative. Also, if the series converges, the higher order terms will become smaller, thus the practice of approximating the reality up to n-th order term.

Also, it's often practical to ignore 2nd order and higher terms, because then you have a linear function - something really easy to work with. Therefore, "2nd order effects" have effectively become synonymous to "non-linear effects".

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#110
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Sorry in advance, to be the goyim and ask: Do you have doubts in this privileged model of thinking, or you enjoy the power and then intellectualize the outcome. Because we as the stupid ones can "hurt ourselves" and we need the "wisdom" of historically proven "chosen" people with higher IQ, moral ground and knowledge. Right?

No, you are completely reading some bullshit sense of false superiority into what I said. Your comment is antisemitic but I'll address it as it stands as if you mean it honestly. I don't believe in any "chosen". I believe in what my people taught me, just like the Chinese believe in their own 5000 years of history, or the Czechs have pride for fighting back the Russians but I am not "chosen"...or better than anyone... every group of people have grandfathers who taught them how to survive and how to assess the world. That's all. I'm actually just sharing how I see it.. but I don't think I'm better than anyone else let alone it's my job to moralize, or feel power over anyone. I'm just here to express my opinion like everyone else.

By the way, can a Muslim have an opinion about Jesus? They sure do. Can a Buddhist? Yes. Well... the man was a Jew and most of the history of antisemitism revolves around Christians pretending he wasn't a rabbi. So this ain't chosen anything I'm just saying what it is... the man was a Jewish rabbi who rebelled in a few good ways against the Hebrew norms... he was a rebel and I admire what he said and did.

This is not scorn on goyim. Frankly if you want it? I don't know what you Romans are still doing worshipping a Jew what, in the year 2022, but that's between you and God

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