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Second-Order Thinking

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51–60 of 266 posts

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#51

This just in from the eggheads: actions have consequences. I think it’s more likely that what Smart People actually have isn’t some supernatural common sense that allows them to iterate over cause and effect to a greater degree than Joe Stupid, but rather a set of specific domain experience and knowledge that allows them to infer that particular effects follow particular events about which they are reasoning.

I once had a project manager that didn't do second order thinking at all. He saw our current state and the finish line. To him there was just one simple step between now and completing the project called "just do all the stuff". I tried explaining the Coastline Paradox[0] to him but it just didn't stick. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox

I have no idea whether this applies to your manager, but I find that a fair bit of seemingly overly simplistic management is actually, to use the terms of this topic, carefully tuned second-order thinking. It goes like this:

1. Devs are natural overthinkers, prone to analysis paralysis and to feature/quality creep.

2. If we remove nuance from the conversation about planning, this causes frustration with the devs because they're feeling unheard (1st order effect, a common complaint on HN)

3. However, it sets a culture of "just shipping", trying to find corners that can be reasonably cut, making sure that problems that are hard to explain to the dumb boss aren't really simply too small to matter (or too far in the future), etc. This increases agility in the longer term and might be worth the initial frustration (second order effect).

I'm sure many managers who stop at 2 and don't care about the adverse effect. Just ship the features so I get my bonus, you nerd. That's bad. But there's just as many who use overly simplistic reasoning as a tool to nudge a culture into a particular direction, and it's not always easy to tell at the beginning which of the two is going on. As a natural overthinker, I find this a worthy skill to cultivate and I'm impressed with people who can do it well.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#52
A lot of times I face the problem that others can't grasp what comes intuitively to me. Sometimes years later they let me know that I was right. But most of of them don't remember any more.

E.g. 30 years ago I had a lenghty discussion with my fellow electronics engineering classmates. I predicted then that in the future computers will consist of a single chip that comes with everything necessary and is going to be individually configurable for each customer. The others could not even imagine something like this happening. If we look at smartphones (ARM) and modern computers (Apple Silicon) this is exactly ehat is happening. Apart from power supply, interfaces and storage, everything including GPU and Ram is on one chip.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#53
post #12

This is just "long term thinking". I would say the article isn't worth reading. But at least, it's a good reminder to focus on thinking about the long term consequences of actions/decisions.

Not necessarily. It describes 2nd order and above in contrast to the immediate effects of a decision. The 2nd order effect may be in 5s time or even immediate but not a direct consequence of the original action.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#54
My favorite example: The cobra effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive

"The term cobra effect was coined by economist Horst Siebert based on an anecdote of an occurrence in India during British rule. The British government, concerned about the number of venomous cobras in Delhi, offered a bounty for every dead cobra. Initially, this was a successful strategy; large numbers of snakes were killed for the reward. Eventually, however, enterprising people began to breed cobras for the income. When the government became aware of this, the reward program was scrapped. When cobra breeders set their now-worthless snakes free, the wild cobra population further increased"

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#55
Did someone just make a serious blog post to describe thinking. One that is deadpan not philosophical and supposed to (by the authors view) be helping people?

If this is new to people it would explain 99% of the most horrific security vulnerabilities I think I've seen in recent years.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#56
post #12

This is just "long term thinking". I would say the article isn't worth reading. But at least, it's a good reminder to focus on thinking about the long term consequences of actions/decisions.

Not necessarily. It describes 2nd order and above in contrast to the immediate effects of a decision. The 2nd order effect may be in 5s time or even immediate but not a direct consequence of the original action.

how is that not long term thinking?

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#58

Aaaand third order thinking is skimming this and knowing it's about as deep as the conversation I tried to have at a bar three hours ago when I explained I was just playing "devil's advocate" to someone who was already playing devil's advocate. Whenever I get desperate enough to start a blog full of deep thoughts that only gets posted here, watch out HN.

Cynicism is not a substitute for wisdom.

What? Wisdom is expensive! If you're fresh out of wisdom, or just low on cash, you can TOTALLY use cynicism 1:1 in most recipes.

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#59

This just in from the eggheads: actions have consequences. I think it’s more likely that what Smart People actually have isn’t some supernatural common sense that allows them to iterate over cause and effect to a greater degree than Joe Stupid, but rather a set of specific domain experience and knowledge that allows them to infer that particular effects follow particular events about which they are reasoning.

I once had a project manager that didn't do second order thinking at all. He saw our current state and the finish line. To him there was just one simple step between now and completing the project called "just do all the stuff". I tried explaining the Coastline Paradox[0] to him but it just didn't stick. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox

well I guess that's why he's a manager...

Re: Second-Order Thinking

#60
This article, and some of the comments here, seem to confuse "second-order" with "long-term".

Long-term just means doing the same analysis far out into the future: "If I spend less on maintaining software product $LEGACY, I will save money. If I continue to do this, I will save more and more money by each passing month."

Second-order means discovering neighbouring causal links. "If I spend less on maintaining software product $LEGACY, I will save money. I will however also have to prioritise which bugs I fix. This will lead to some bugs that would be fixed today not getting fixed. That might mean that some users of $LEGACY move to a competitor. In turn, it costs more to acquire new customers than to retain old ones, so just maintaining the same customer count while dissatisfying customers until they quit will cost more money than by trying to make existing customers happy.

"Quitting $LEGACY customers will however lead to fewer bugs being discovered in $LEGACY, meaning the reduced maintenance budget might be sufficient again. However, quitting customers doesn't only force me to spend more to re-acquire similar number of customers – it might also be negative for marketing, so it becomes harder to acquire new customers, thus having a non-linear effect on the customer replacement costs.

"Decreased maintenance of $LEGACY might make some developers happier, but signal to others that we are not serious about the lifecycle of our product. This might result in them not putting in as much effort to make maintenance easier in future products, which will increase the maintenance demand in future products. Thus, insufficient maintenance efforts on $LEGACY may lead to increasing maintenance demand, which leads to insufficient maintenance efforts, which leads to increasing maintenance demand, and so on."

As the last parts of that hint at, what's really important is not all the neighbouring causal links, but those that lead to nonlinearities and feedback cycles. By mucking about with things in a stable system, in particular when there are nonlinearities and feedback cycles involved, you can accidentally create an unstable system that wants to drive itself into the ground.

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