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What really happened to Jack Ma?

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Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#101

Post by bluthund »

Jochim wrote: post #74
genmud wrote: post #5

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist…

It's kind of intriguing to me because, as a member of a western society, I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied. In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested w…

Nonsense. This is the narrative brought about by critical theory, but it is so far from true

The only people who feel this way are people who have been scared into it by reading too much of this garbage

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#102

Post by boomboomsubban »

drumhead wrote: post #76
Traster wrote: post #18

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's…

So Medieval. The Crown accuses you of corruption/sedition/treachery, prosecutes you then confiscates your property as a fine. A bit like Henry 7th in England during his reign. Also a bit like Putin against any oligarchs who dared to oppose him. But then I suppose its a standard pattern of behaviour to give their actions the sheen of lawfulness.

Or like civil forfeiture, the only difference is how rich the victims are.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#103

Post by Bombthecat »

arvigeus wrote: post #80
Traster wrote: post #18

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's…

I don't think CCP would throw away billions of worth just because they dislike the man. Unlike the west, China is allowed to meddle into the affairs of any company, so it's not hard to imagine they are just profiting from him, like a shadow takeover. This explains why he is shown around from time to time: to calm down the investors. At some point this circus would be over, and the companies will collapse by themselve…

So, you could short the stock and make a killing? In around a year or two?

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#104

Post by bzzzt »

the_third_wave wrote: post #71
smcl wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: Removed this. I was agreeing with parent (CCP != communist), but don’t wanna encourage more replies like the one I got

Assuming that failed communist states "are not communist" is is a dangerous fallacy which keeps alive the idea that "Communism works but has never been tried in real life". The CCP is a communist party in one of the end stages of the ideology just like the Soviet communist party was a communist party in one of its end stages, just like all the other failed communist states were led by communist parties in their end s…

I'm wondering what the end state of our democratic capitalistic states will be...

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#105

Post by throw0101a »

dfadsadsf wrote: post #81
skrebbel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? How are LGBTQ chatrooms a threat to the power and stability of the CCP leadership in a way comparable to Jack Ma? EDIT: I don't mean this critically, I'm actually quite interested. There seems to be a correlation between how repressive a government is and how nasty they are towards LGBTQetc people. I never considered this to be a causal relationship until your comment. Maybe somehow Putin and Orban…

LGBTQ by itself is not a threat to either Putin or Xi but what LGBTQ represents is a threat to traditional society and gender roles. The judgement is still out if new type of society developed in the west with modern gender norms, women’s rights and sexual freedoms is viable long term and from demographic perspective it’s frankly probably not. Authoritarians instinctively cling to the old roles/family and even if are…

> The judgement is still out if new type of society developed in the west with modern gender norms, women’s rights and sexual freedoms is viable long term and from demographic perspective it’s frankly probably not.

LGBTQ rights are a sub-set of human rights, in which individuals have self-autonomy/integrity. This may be antithetical to more traditionally collectivist cultures.

An independent judiciary and due process also has a noted history in the West as compared to how things were run in (say) Imperial China:

* https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3624887-the-medieval-ori...

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#106

Post by frollo »

owlmirror wrote: post #88
Jochim wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of intriguing to me because, as a member of a western society, I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied. In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested w…

>In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested while working on their own car, or entering their own home because a neighbour saw them and decided they did not or could not belong. Does this go beyond anecdotes and are that quantifiable occurrence…

> In my opinion I'd tend say that modern western societies are the most safe and welcoming societies for foreigners, were you face the least amount of discrimination as an outsider.

I think it depends on so many factors that you shouldn't make a blanket statement in any direction. You can say both things on different areas of the same city.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#107

Post by roenxi »

pydry wrote: post #65
scandox wrote: post #23

The very excellent effect of Ma's downfall is that it will remind wealthy people in the West that democracy has its good points. Much easier to sympathize with the expropriation of a Billionaire than some schlub from the middle of nowhere.

>democracy has its good points That when billionaires become powerful enough to exert unchecked power we lavish praise instead of imprisoning them?

Would you rather billionaires exerting "unchecked power" or party officials exerting actual, unchecked, power?

Because the unchecked power of the typical billionaire couldn't achieve what is being done to Jack Ma.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#108

Post by throw0101a »

Jochim wrote: post #74
genmud wrote: post #5

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist…

It's kind of intriguing to me because, as a member of a western society, I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied. In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested w…

> […] I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied.

Yeonmi Park, a defector (escapee?) from North Korea, was surprised in what could and could not be said in the US when she went to university:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Yeon-mi

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#109

Post by smackeyacky »

hash9 wrote: post #98
meibo wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? Countries with LGBT and woman's rights aren't sustainable demographically? I think you're severely overstating the effect of LGBT people on this matter - western countries struggle with demographics, but it's not because more gay people are able to live their lives without being forced into straight relationships.

There is substantial research showing a negative correlation between female empowerment and fertility rates. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230554993_4 https://bmcwomenshealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s...

Children are power when you have limited alternatives.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#110

Post by smackeyacky »

pavlov wrote: post #30
boyka wrote: post #12

Another (more) interesting question would be: What is Jack Ma actually doing with all the money from private loans against his shares? Buying European real estate? We probably will know eventually if $BABA keeps its downward trend and margin calls cannot be fulfilled.

AFAIK it’s usual practice for billionaire founders to fund their lifestyles with loans taken against their stock. If they sold stock, they’d incur large taxes. A loan avoids that.

It is also considered a sign that the founder doesn't believe in the company if they sell stock. That's the main reason loans are used, so you can enjoy the wealth without cashing out and tanking the share price.
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