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Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

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Re: Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

#101

Post by ducktective »

ogre_codes wrote: post #49

This bit about Multi-platform development is most interesting to me. > Many developers are going to experience multi-platform development for the first time with the M1 Macs. This is one of the key areas where Docker shines. Docker has had support for multi-platform images for a long time, meaning that you can build and run both x86 and ARM images on Desktop today. If multi platform images work, a lot of the concerns…

Yeah, until the developers decide to release only for Arm targets and when you search issues for x86 build, the maintainer says "just compile it yourself"...

And you look into the dockerfile manifest and see that it wants to pull the whole stack of history of computing...Then you figure maybe you don't need that shiny utility in the first place and move on...

It's "64 vs 32-bit" or "Ubuntu vs Arch vs Fedora binary" all over again...

Re: Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

#102

Post by ogre_codes »

cogman10 wrote: post #86
MangoCoffee wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of course, once you can do everything on ARM as well as you can on x86. i have high hope for AMD/TSMC to push x86. Intel seem to be...stuck for now.

I mean, if the apple approach really works well then I could see AMD or even Intel following suit in the future. If the industry starts to shift and push towards ARM due to cost, AMD and Intel would be fools to just leave that on the table.

Intel's fat margins are largely based on their duopoly on x86. With ARM, it's far more competitive and margins are far lower. With Nvidia owning ARM, it seems likely we'll see more ARM CPUs from them. Samsung, Qualcomm, and Mediatech also have ARM CPUs all the way down to a few dollars per CPU. Intel isn't going to be able to come in and charge $50-500+ unit the way they do with their x86 chips.

Unless Intel can reboot Moore's Law on Intel, they are going to get hit hard over the next few years. Even if Intel makes the move to ARM, their profitability will take a huge hit from the ARM migration.

Re: Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

#103

Post by birdyrooster »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #100
birdyrooster wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple probably uses this technology a lot for themselves and has given support to Docker to implement this quickly.

> has given support to Docker to implement this quickly Any proof? As far as I know apple, they are not that developer/open source supportive.

Nope just a guess, wonder if anyone can confirm from Docker

Re: Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

#104

Post by derethanhausen »

mulcahey wrote: post #55

Perhaps a dumb question but I'm curious why people don't use a VPS or a cloud linux machine more for Docker/K8s development instead of running Docker locally on a Mac. In my experience Docker Desktop has been such a resource hog, and Apple's hypervisor implementation pretty poor. I much prefer to have all that heavy lifting isolated away from my development machine to keep it responsive and cool.

It can get surprisingly expensive when left on 24/7. If someone can come up with a remote (dare I say, serverless?) development environment that could seamlessly suspend/resume or share resources, then it would be a lot more compelling to me.

Re: Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

#105

Post by diveanon »

haswell wrote: post #88
stephenr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because CorporationX says “don’t worry about it we got you bruh” doesn’t mean technologists - people who actively work with technology and write software - should be excused for just throwing up their hands and saying “it’s just ducking magic I don’t know how it works”. I’m not talking about understanding it to the level of being able to contribute a patch to the project. I’m talking about understanding that con…

> Just because CorporationX says “don’t worry about it we got you bruh” doesn’t mean technologists - people who actively work with technology and write software - should be excused for just throwing up their hands and saying “it’s just ducking magic I don’t know how it works”. Entire industries are built on the premise that "don't worry about it, we got you". I'm not saying that it's appropriate to be completely blin…

Leading by example.

You have a lot more patience than I do, unfortunately I think this person just wants to be mad.

Re: Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

#106

Post by acdha »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #96
ogre_codes wrote: post #49

This bit about Multi-platform development is most interesting to me. > Many developers are going to experience multi-platform development for the first time with the M1 Macs. This is one of the key areas where Docker shines. Docker has had support for multi-platform images for a long time, meaning that you can build and run both x86 and ARM images on Desktop today. If multi platform images work, a lot of the concerns…

> If multi platform images work, a lot of the concerns people have about x86 versus ARM should go away. Not really. Just because you have ARM and AMD debian, you wouldn't have same behaviour in both. You wouldn't have same list of packages that can be installed.

You'll have extremely close to the same behaviour in both since Debian ships exactly the same versions. It's always possible that there's a compiler bug which only affects one platform but that's relatively uncommon. At one point I was supporting Debian on x86, x86_64, MIPS, and PowerPC. The major portability concern was drivers, which is irrelevant for Docker, and sometimes you'd find performance issues with e.g. OpenSSL having a hand-tuned x86 ASM implementation but relying on the C compiler for another platform but it was rather uncommon.

I am skeptical that anyone will notice a problem unless their workflow is to build a container on their laptop and push it straight to production without testing.

Re: Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

#107

Post by my123 »

jbirer wrote: post #83
scoopdewoop wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were available for purchase to non-developers, how would that be early availability? That would just be a release.

If they were available to every developer, Docker would not have been this late.

The devkits were available for everyone who asked one, but the A12Z didn't have hardware virtualization.

Re: Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

#108

Post by diveanon »

perbu wrote: post #85
diveanon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I develop exclusively on Linux, but it would be nice if my teammates who don't didn't melt their laptops doing local dev on mac. If apple gave a shit about non apple developers they would provide the kernel hooks to help make it possible. Also, nobody deploys on mac hosts because virtualizing macos in a cloud environment is against tos, so options are expensive and limited.

Me and I just about everyone I know that has a mac develops _for_ Linux. What is nice is that I can push, pull and run Linux images on my mac. If the containers where native Macos docker images it would be about as useful as native Docker on Windows. Which I'm sure is great for the few ppl that need it - but pretty useless for most ppl. But I sure wouldn't mind if was a bit snappier. But it is plenty fast enough for…

I believe they would just need to virtualize what isn't already provided by xnu-darwin.

This may already be the case, but the memory allocation for docker vm on mac really handicaps things.

Re: Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

#109

Post by ogre_codes »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #96
ogre_codes wrote: post #49

This bit about Multi-platform development is most interesting to me. > Many developers are going to experience multi-platform development for the first time with the M1 Macs. This is one of the key areas where Docker shines. Docker has had support for multi-platform images for a long time, meaning that you can build and run both x86 and ARM images on Desktop today. If multi platform images work, a lot of the concerns…

> If multi platform images work, a lot of the concerns people have about x86 versus ARM should go away. Not really. Just because you have ARM and AMD debian, you wouldn't have same behaviour in both. You wouldn't have same list of packages that can be installed.

That is fundamentally what I mean when I say "If they work". If the two platforms behave differently, then multi-platform images are pointless.

If 1 in 20 multi-platform images has some kind of oddball cross platform behavior, developers won't be able to rely on them at all. I think we can get far better than that, but we'll see.

Re: Tech Preview of Docker Desktop for M1

#110

Post by diveanon »

ehutch79 wrote: post #82
diveanon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I develop exclusively on Linux, but it would be nice if my teammates who don't didn't melt their laptops doing local dev on mac. If apple gave a shit about non apple developers they would provide the kernel hooks to help make it possible. Also, nobody deploys on mac hosts because virtualizing macos in a cloud environment is against tos, so options are expensive and limited.

I deploy on linux, but dev on macOS without a vm or docker or anything. If you're not doing anything OS dependant, which most web apps don't, you can run everything natively.

Isolation is another important reason people use docker.

I don't want my developers to have to manage a complex dev stack and it's dependencies.

I would argue that this is the primary use case for local docker dev these days.

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