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Boise is why L.A. can’t legally clear its streets of homeless encampments

latimes.com

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Re: Boise is why L.A. can’t legally clear its streets of homeless encampments

#101

Post by ummonk »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #45
ummonk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly all homeless are adult men.

That isn’t true. First, you have to distinguish between the visible and invisible homeless. Homeless women who aren’t mentally ill or heavily into drugs are very likely to get access to a shelter at least, so you wouldn’t notice them (the same is true for men as well, just less so). And then you have mentally ill or heavily drug addicted women, you notice these in LA also. It isn’t clear to me why there are more men…

The invisible homeless aren't the ones who would get harassed by the police.

Re: Boise is why L.A. can’t legally clear its streets of homeless encampments

#102

Post by mnm1 »

ImNoSuperman wrote: post #38
tehjoker wrote: post #15

Brutal article. They're trying to conduct a violent purge/exile of homeless while dressing it up as caring about them. Give them houses wtf

Tell doctors to stop prescribing heroine.

Heroin can't be prescribed in the US, but if it could, or if other opioids could be prescribed for addiction rather than just physical pain, it would help immensely. If it was supervised, it would end overdoses, needles on the ground, and a ton of other needless suffering and death. The addicts might even decide to wean off with help, get jobs, and start leading normal lives. That's what's happened in places that have tried this, including southern California before prohibition. Of course with people advocating for solutions that have been proven now for over a hundred years not to work like yours, we won't be solving this problem anytime soon. Of course, when most people can't be bothered to think or research, they'll just spew out this type of uneducated, stupid bullshit because that's what everyone else is doing. And that feels good. All the while their neighbors are dying or sent to jail so that people can feel righteous in their stupidity.

Re: Boise is why L.A. can’t legally clear its streets of homeless encampments

#103

Post by pandaman »

jMyles wrote: post #90
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a public nuisance aspect to people who are living on the street or in forests on land they don’t own/rent. Even mobile vehicles can be problematic if they are parked on the street without access to decent facilities. I don’t think many would have a problem with someone who lacked a permanent home but setup camp or their vehicle on a formal campground with reasonable hygiene facilities so they weren’t pooping…

> There is a public nuisance aspect to people who are living on the street or in forests on land they don’t own/rent. I don't think there is a connection to property ownership and the presence of a nuisance caused by people. So what if people are living on land that they don't own and rent? Who has decreed that land ownership must be the absolute fundamental social norm? What if people are instinctually disinclined t…

There are many territorial animals who protect their territory from intruders and humans are by far not the only one. Is your complaint about humans refining the process and erecting a formal framework around this instead of constantly deciding who owns the territory in a fight like other animals? I don't think you'd like it more, to be honest.

Re: Boise is why L.A. can’t legally clear its streets of homeless encampments

#104

Post by playeren »

romaaeterna wrote: post #98
playeren wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Homelessness in modern America is to a great degree elective How did you determine that?

I've worked on getting some individual people into assisted living situations, etc. The problem has never been lack of beds. It has been the individual involved. There are a few good books on all of this. It's not a resource problem in the Western world. It's a mental illness and drug problem. EDIT: I should say rather, the major problem has never been lack of beds. Sometimes I've had to wait a few days, etc., or cho…

Assuming your limited interface is representative, and there in fact always are more usable beds available than homeless people (I doubt this, but only have anecdotal evidence to the contrary from working with homeless people) - how does that translate into 'homelessness is elective'? I've seen a multitude of reasons that destroy peoples lives, and makes them unable to be a productive, rent-paying, law-abiding citizen.

Also, bed availability aside - I've heard many who are scared of the available shelters, due to threats, drug dealing or harassment from other ill-fortuned inhabitants.

Maybe we just define 'elective' differently.

I urge anybody who is worried about homelessness in their area, to try and dig deeper into possible root-causes for wide-spread homelessness. Maybe each and every individual homeless person have made bad or even catastrophic decisions that led them to their calamity, but if that really is the case (just for arguments sake - my experience says otherwise for most cases), why are so many making these bad decisions? Let's treat systemic problems as such, and make sure that we don't only focus on relieving symptoms, and maybe we find homelessness to be a solvable problem.

Re: Boise is why L.A. can’t legally clear its streets of homeless encampments

#105

Post by romaaeterna »

playeren wrote: post #104
romaaeterna wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked on getting some individual people into assisted living situations, etc. The problem has never been lack of beds. It has been the individual involved. There are a few good books on all of this. It's not a resource problem in the Western world. It's a mental illness and drug problem. EDIT: I should say rather, the major problem has never been lack of beds. Sometimes I've had to wait a few days, etc., or cho…

Assuming your limited interface is representative, and there in fact always are more usable beds available than homeless people (I doubt this, but only have anecdotal evidence to the contrary from working with homeless people) - how does that translate into 'homelessness is elective'? I've seen a multitude of reasons that destroy peoples lives, and makes them unable to be a productive, rent-paying, law-abiding citize…

> I've heard many who are scared of the available shelters, due to threats, drug dealing or harassment from other ill-fortuned inhabitants.

And so they move to a tent encampment? This makes no sense.

The problem isn't even the bad and catastrophic decisions that homeless people made to get them into the situation -- would that it were -- for the permanent homeless, it is the bad and catastrophic decisions they make on a daily basis to keep themselves in it.

How to treat this? Involuntary mental health incarceration. Police ticketing and other harsh actions to break up the cycle and keep people from being comfortable with their homeless situation. Destroy the social anti-patterns that are keeping people trapped.

Do you know anyway with a child in this situation? Ask them how their offers of money and help went, and what happened when that help was delivered. You may have an interesting conversation.

Re: Boise is why L.A. can’t legally clear its streets of homeless encampments

#106

Post by excursionist »

theNJR wrote: post #91
excursionist wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mental health and substance abuse issues don't spontaneously emerge on their own. Lack of money, housing, personal life, etc. are huge contributing causes.

Mental health / substance can cause homelessness. Homelessness can cause mental health / substance. It’s a shit cycle either way, but the one certainty is we are not addressing either in a meaningful way.

Claiming there are no fundamental material/economic problems, such as with housing, and pretending homeless people are just a lost cause of mentally ill substance abusers is certainly not going to solve any problems, except maybe putting your conscience at ease. Housing is not the only problem, but there are fundamental material issues which greatly increase the chance of mental illness and substance abuse.

Re: Boise is why L.A. can’t legally clear its streets of homeless encampments

#107

Post by theNJR »

excursionist wrote: post #106
theNJR wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mental health / substance can cause homelessness. Homelessness can cause mental health / substance. It’s a shit cycle either way, but the one certainty is we are not addressing either in a meaningful way.

Claiming there are no fundamental material/economic problems, such as with housing, and pretending homeless people are just a lost cause of mentally ill substance abusers is certainly not going to solve any problems, except maybe putting your conscience at ease. Housing is not the only problem, but there are fundamental material issues which greatly increase the chance of mental illness and substance abuse.

I agree with that very much. It's hard not to think this is a byproduct of global corporate capitalism and all these other problems stem from that.

Re: Boise is why L.A. can’t legally clear its streets of homeless encampments

#108

Post by playeren »

romaaeterna wrote: post #105
playeren wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming your limited interface is representative, and there in fact always are more usable beds available than homeless people (I doubt this, but only have anecdotal evidence to the contrary from working with homeless people) - how does that translate into 'homelessness is elective'? I've seen a multitude of reasons that destroy peoples lives, and makes them unable to be a productive, rent-paying, law-abiding citize…

> I've heard many who are scared of the available shelters, due to threats, drug dealing or harassment from other ill-fortuned inhabitants. And so they move to a tent encampment? This makes no sense. The problem isn't even the bad and catastrophic decisions that homeless people made to get them into the situation -- would that it were -- for the permanent homeless, it is the bad and catastrophic decisions they make o…

I struggle to understand what points you are making. Are you saying that since these people are making life difficult for themselves, there can be no external causes behind that behavior? It sounds a lot like "their own fault, not my problem" to be honest.

Re: Boise is why L.A. can’t legally clear its streets of homeless encampments

#109

Post by romaaeterna »

playeren wrote: post #108
romaaeterna wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard many who are scared of the available shelters, due to threats, drug dealing or harassment from other ill-fortuned inhabitants. And so they move to a tent encampment? This makes no sense. The problem isn't even the bad and catastrophic decisions that homeless people made to get them into the situation -- would that it were -- for the permanent homeless, it is the bad and catastrophic decisions they make o…

I struggle to understand what points you are making. Are you saying that since these people are making life difficult for themselves, there can be no external causes behind that behavior? It sounds a lot like "their own fault, not my problem" to be honest.

No, I'm not saying that. Can you point to the exact sentence that confused you?
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