Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics • Hacker News Board

Re: Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics

#101

Post by cwkoss » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

prongletown wrote: post #25

kryogen1c wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its simple to get to know your local rancher. >Factory farms are the bigger problem, not just meat per-se. Not just meat farms! One thing vegans and vegetarians often gloss over is the death per calorie involved in crop fields. Those thousands of acres have animals in them, and the machines sure dont stop for every varmit that gets in the way. It is not clear what the right answer is (assuming all you care about is…

>eat well raised cow meat It takes significantly more feed to raise a cow. The calories extracted from cow meat is extremely inefficient considering the high number of calories in (feed) and water. So, you could not use feed (vegetable death-per-calorie!) because it's something like a 8:1 calorie ratio for feed to a pound of beef. You'd have to pasture raise the cows. There is no feasible way to ensure that all food…

If a cow is not raised in pasture, it's not a well raised cow.

Ruminant holon systems like those used by Polyface Farms (Joel Salatin of Omnivore Dilemma fame) are incredibly efficient at both producing calories and utilizing waste products.

Re: Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics

#102

Post by spraak » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

warent wrote: post #41

alexfromapex wrote: post #32

Can we please stop overusing antibiotics? They are essentially dangerous organic weapons we don’t understand

That would mean less livestock farming, which means people would have to accept a life with less meat. It's simply not going to happen. Humans are way too arrogant and inflexible to impose the smallest inconvenience on themselves unless faced with tangible, immediately harmful effects. Not to mention the complete shift in the global economy that it would demand. I've been a vegetarian for about 4 years and the cognit…

> I've been a vegetarian for about 4 years and the cognitive dissonance you start to see is remarkable. People claim to love animals and hate animal cruelty through mouthfuls of burger and pork.

When you are eating something with eggs from a restaurant [1] do you also not feel discomfort from two contradictory beliefs?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21052043

Re: Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics

#103

Post by noodlesUK » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:53 PM UTC

Please can this title be changed? Perhaps “antibiotic resistant bacteria surge in farm animals in China and India“. The current title plays directly into the common misconception that it’s the host that becomes resistant to an antibiotic rather than the microbes within them. This misconception confuses the narrative that antibiotic resistance is a growing global threat (which it is).

Re: Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics

#104

Post by johnisgood » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

HenryBemis wrote: post #82

kryogen1c wrote: post #9

Source paper https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6459/eaaw1944.ful... >From 2000 to 2018, the proportion of antimicrobial compounds with resistance higher than 50% (P50) increased from 0.15 to 0.41 in chickens and from 0.13 to 0.34 in pigs and plateaued between 0.12 and 0.23 in cattle. >Globally, 73% of all antimicrobials sold on Earth are used in animals raised for food. Jeeeesus. It sure feels like humanity…

> It sure feels like humanity is painting itself into a corner along it's called capitalism, and "increasing shareholder value". This is why large corp lobby in the USA, this is why big pharma bribes anyone with a stethoscope, this is why big oil is trying to stop/slow/control progress of solar/wind. "We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children" https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/01…

Why would the economic system be at fault here? Why is the economic system to "blame"? What alternatives do you have in mind, and how do they compare to capitalism?

Re: Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics

#105

Post by johnisgood » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:17 PM UTC

prongletown wrote: post #25

kryogen1c wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its simple to get to know your local rancher. >Factory farms are the bigger problem, not just meat per-se. Not just meat farms! One thing vegans and vegetarians often gloss over is the death per calorie involved in crop fields. Those thousands of acres have animals in them, and the machines sure dont stop for every varmit that gets in the way. It is not clear what the right answer is (assuming all you care about is…

>eat well raised cow meat It takes significantly more feed to raise a cow. The calories extracted from cow meat is extremely inefficient considering the high number of calories in (feed) and water. So, you could not use feed (vegetable death-per-calorie!) because it's something like a 8:1 calorie ratio for feed to a pound of beef. You'd have to pasture raise the cows. There is no feasible way to ensure that all food…

> I don't think anyone would want to subsist exclusively on a diet of rice, beans, and dietary supplements.

Hmm? I am enjoying the wide variety of legumes, for one. :D I make stews out of them. :)

Re: Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics

#106

Post by jacobolus » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

flmontpetit wrote: post #39

nitwit005 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct that he complained about that, but the point was supposed to be about the exploitation and abuse of laborers.

That's true, but "exploitation and abuse of laborers" and "tubercular beef" were ultimately caused by the same thing.

Upton Sinclair’s complaint was that everyone cared about the health implications but didn’t care about the workers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle#Reception

Re: Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics

#107

Post by johnisgood » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

josephorjoe wrote: post #47

Dumblydorr wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are negative externalities, in other words, and a truly well functioning economy would align bad behavior with higher costs, surely we can get there...?

Not without government regulation. Businesses never regulate themselves before the disaster because it is always more profitable to use the "there won't be a disaster" scenario plan.

"One must distinguish regulation (which often is specific to a certain area of business) from law (which is more general). For example, there are laws against fraud, and long before governments began to regulate the US economy, people brought alleged fraud cases to court, as well as other tort action that existed under a common law system."

"Private enterprise works on a voluntary basis, a business owner cannot coerce someone to do business with him. Things like loss of reputation, shoddy products, poor service and the like serve as real boundaries for business owners, who in a free market survive only by offering goods that people are willing to purchase.

There are numerous private (read that, voluntary) organizations that police businesses, settle disputes, independently test products, and provide needed information for consumers and producers alike. Yes, these organizations do have a regulating effect upon the behavior of individuals who participate in private production and exchange."

Edit: removed the conclusions, the rest - in my opinion - is relevant to the comment above.

Re: Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics

#108

Post by wtdata » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

tdb7893 wrote: post #40

kryogen1c wrote: post #9

Source paper https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6459/eaaw1944.ful... >From 2000 to 2018, the proportion of antimicrobial compounds with resistance higher than 50% (P50) increased from 0.15 to 0.41 in chickens and from 0.13 to 0.34 in pigs and plateaued between 0.12 and 0.23 in cattle. >Globally, 73% of all antimicrobials sold on Earth are used in animals raised for food. Jeeeesus. It sure feels like humanity…

One small way consumers can help is to reduce animal consumption. As an industry it releases a decent amount of greenhouse gasses, it creates antibiotic resistance, and it uses a ton of land and water (many of the people burning the Amazon are cattle ranchers). It's also very closely tied to actual consumer demand so consumers can affect it pretty easily.

No, that's the consumers in emergent economies. In the 1st world things are working properly.

That's the all gist about meat consumption: let's look at all the problems meat production has in emergent and 3rd world countries and then tell people in the West they shouldn't eat meat.

Re: Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics

#109

Post by seanwilson » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #86

warent wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would mean less livestock farming, which means people would have to accept a life with less meat. It's simply not going to happen. Humans are way too arrogant and inflexible to impose the smallest inconvenience on themselves unless faced with tangible, immediately harmful effects. Not to mention the complete shift in the global economy that it would demand. I've been a vegetarian for about 4 years and the cognit…

Personally, I find the environmental issues & existential threat of climate change that livestock farming contributes towards is the far more motivating factor in reducing consumption of meat & animal products. It's a false dichomity to say it's impossible to 'love' some animals while eating others; it's bit absurd to claim since humans have been doing so for 1000s of years and that we've domesticated an entire speci…

> It's a false dichomity to say it's impossible to 'love' some animals while eating others

It might not be impossible but it's a strange double standard that e.g. people would be against any form of cruelty at all to dogs but are fine with factory farmed cows and pigs. I don't find the argument that dogs have been brought up to be companions for 1000s of years a compelling justification. Most people couldn't even watch videos of how cows and pigs are slaughtered let alone do it themselves which to me is telling that they're aware of the suffering caused but choose to ignore it.

Re: Farm animals in India and China are becoming more resistant to antibiotics

#110

Post by erikpukinskis » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

johnisgood wrote: post #107

josephorjoe wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not without government regulation. Businesses never regulate themselves before the disaster because it is always more profitable to use the "there won't be a disaster" scenario plan.

"One must distinguish regulation (which often is specific to a certain area of business) from law (which is more general). For example, there are laws against fraud, and long before governments began to regulate the US economy, people brought alleged fraud cases to court, as well as other tort action that existed under a common law system." "Private enterprise works on a voluntary basis, a business owner cannot coerc…

"without government regulation, there would be no legal oversight of markets"

"without government, markets would be a chaotic mess"

No one said those things. You've proved wrong claims that nobody made.