Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

European Parliament approves copyright reform

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 840 posts

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#101

Post by ocdtrekkie »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #57
trkh0 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how it's always the google haters: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=ocdtrekkie

Hey, I hate google almost as much as people who eat while on the computer, but I still think this law is dumb. Many have already pointed out how it actually plays directly into the hands of Google and other big tech.

I don't understand this view at all. Why would a company that benefits this law spend so much money trying to prevent it from passing? Surely by now we recognize that big tech will always move in the direction of its own profits, so shouldn't we look at what they're aiming for, and recognize that is their best case scenario?

I would argue that the people who make policy decisions at Google are incredibly smart. If this was going to cement their monopoly, wouldn't their resistance to it be... Muted at best?

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#102

Post by isostatic »

sprash wrote: post #87
antientropic wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are pretty weak arguments to get rid of the EU. In many democracies, the government has the power to propose legislation. And what democracy doesn't have backroom deals?

The problem here is that the backroom deal of two countries (Germany and France) now has influence over countries that are totally unrelated like e.g. Finland. This turns the EU into a tyranny where might is right. Why should Germans have a say about how the internet should work in Finland? The EU is also already dying. Brexit will come soon and Italy is on it's way out. What the remnants will be is unclear but the E…

The problem here is that the backroom deal of two states (California and New York) now has influence over states that are totally unrelated like e.g. Wyoming. This turns the US into a tyranny where might is right. Why should Californians have a say about how the internet should work in Wyoming?

(The reality of course is that the US has had not only a say, but often the only say in how the internet should work in the rest of the world for decades, and when it comes to copyright law we have an undemocratic international treaty dating back generations that keeps pushing expiry dates back and back globally)

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#103

Post by cr1895 »

Chris2048 wrote: post #65
barrkel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no polls left showing support for Leave, and still parliament is pursuing it. Good reason to leave UK.

There was a referendum, who cares what the polls say.

What was the referendum beyond a large-scale poll? It wasn't binding in nature.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#104

Post by DarkWiiPlayer »

isostatic wrote: post #73
DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #16

Am I the only one who kinda feels like I'm not living in a democratic system anymore? Not saying this is the first such thing that happens, but it's probably the one that will make me stop using the word to refer to the society I live in.

The EU Parliament, who we vote for every 5 years (and have elections coming up), vote for a law. You don't like said law, therefore it's undemocratic? The way the parliament is elected is quite fair - it gives a little more power to people in smaller countries, but that's not unusual (UK westminster constituencies vary from 22k to 120k. U.S. congress areas are more even, ranging from 500k to 1 million). There's an ar…

To make my point a bit clearer: I am almost convinced now that "representative democracy" shouldn't count as a "democracy" just because the population can vote who they get ####ed by.

It only works as long as the representatives see it as their duty to represent the will of the voters accurately, which I'm starting to believe is an antithesis to human behavior, and thus will never be the norm.

I'm not saying that European society (if such a thing even exists) is inherently undemocratic; just that it's not democratic enough to be called a proper Democracy.

And I'm not even asking for direct democracy on everything, but there should be laws in place that force politicians to put decisions up for vote to the public if there's a certain level of resistance from the population.

Take for an example the UK referendum to leave the EU. Even though it's overall a complete shitshow, and all sides usually agree on that, nobody can really claim that it wasn't a democratic decision. Was it a smart one? Who knows, I doubt it. But it was democratic, and that's more than I can say about this mess.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#105

Post by geff82 »

IanSanders wrote: post #88
geff82 wrote: post #4

I will now start my move out of the EU. I know how heavily restricted Internet feels like from my frequent Iran travels, and I will move out of any country that moves 2 inches in that direction, whatever the "good reason" might be. Politicians felt like your regular corrupt banana republic representatives this time. And now they know how to get away with this, they will try it with something different again soon.

>I will now start my move out of the EU While good for you, EU will have one less citizen opposing internet restriction. We need a better way to deal with this but I cannot think of one. >Politicians felt like your regular corrupt banana republic representatives this time. That's what it converges to. Good ones don't survive.

While I understand what you mean, I don't see myself as having to suffer from stupid legislation. I am no politician and do not plan to be one at this point.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#106

Post by rzwitserloot »

TomMarius wrote: post #68
antientropic wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy does not mean that you always get what you want. A majority in parliament and the council were in favor of this law, so you can't say it's undemocratic.

Democracy does not mean that the parliament and council is in favor, but that "the people" (translation of "demos") have "power" (translation of "kratos").

But it does. "Persona", etymologically, means 'mask' (Per = through, Sonare = Speak. As in, 'the thing you speak through', context: Plays and such, where you'd wear a mask). But I doubt you'd have any luck telling Merriam and Webster to update the definition of 'Persona' and mention only the mask thing.

Words mean what the majority thinks they mean.

Democracy as a word has been used as a word that means, mostly, that there are elections. The specific notion that the people decide directly is usually referred to us 'direct democracy'. A very wide ranging set of systems which all have in common that, primarily, some chunk of the populace gets to vote politicians out of office, has been called 'representative democracy'.

In the case of 'representative democracy', the 'democracy' bit still means 'power' for 'the people'. It's just that the 'power' that 'the people' have is specifically the ability to vote in (and out) a bunch of representatives who then decide.

Perhaps it is disappointing that this model didn't do what you wanted it to do here (which is: Presumably said representatives should decide to do what the people want them to do), but to lean on etymology to claim that this isn't 'democracy', that's just fallacious reasoning.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#107

Post by 1337biz »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #85
lgrebe wrote: post #3

„German newspaper FAZ reports its investigation found strong indications that Germany traded its support for the #copyright deal for French concessions on Russian gas #northstream2„ https://edition.faz.net/faz-edition/wirtschaft/2019-03-26/f3... Via https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/1110278976654794753?s=20

Maybe someone can explain to me why the hell France (or the rest of the EU) even cares about where Germany gets their gas from in the first place?

Because one of the hidden games played in the EU is 'keep the Germans in check'. Some might even say this was one of the original intentions behind the foundation of the EU as a 'peace upholding structure' across Europe.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#108

Post by gryzzly »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #16

Am I the only one who kinda feels like I'm not living in a democratic system anymore? Not saying this is the first such thing that happens, but it's probably the one that will make me stop using the word to refer to the society I live in.

There is a whole movement, called "Democracy in Europe Movement 2025" aimed at restoring democracy in Europe. European Parliament is definitely NOT a democratic institution. It became a sad lobbying haven. https://diem25.org/

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#109

Post by antientropic »

sprash wrote: post #87
antientropic wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are pretty weak arguments to get rid of the EU. In many democracies, the government has the power to propose legislation. And what democracy doesn't have backroom deals?

The problem here is that the backroom deal of two countries (Germany and France) now has influence over countries that are totally unrelated like e.g. Finland. This turns the EU into a tyranny where might is right. Why should Germans have a say about how the internet should work in Finland? The EU is also already dying. Brexit will come soon and Italy is on it's way out. What the remnants will be is unclear but the E…

That argument also applies to any democracy (or indeed any polity larger than a household): why should the people in my town have a say over the laws in the adjacent town?

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#110

Post by yulaow »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #104
isostatic wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU Parliament, who we vote for every 5 years (and have elections coming up), vote for a law. You don't like said law, therefore it's undemocratic? The way the parliament is elected is quite fair - it gives a little more power to people in smaller countries, but that's not unusual (UK westminster constituencies vary from 22k to 120k. U.S. congress areas are more even, ranging from 500k to 1 million). There's an ar…

To make my point a bit clearer: I am almost convinced now that "representative democracy" shouldn't count as a "democracy" just because the population can vote who they get ####ed by. It only works as long as the representatives see it as their duty to represent the will of the voters accurately, which I'm starting to believe is an antithesis to human behavior, and thus will never be the norm. I'm not saying that Eur…

Well it depends on which is your view about "what is the most democratic vote system".

For example I am for a "democracy of experts" system, in which any decision must be voted exclusively by those who have expertise on the matter the vote is about.

From my point of view the Brexit vote is totally not-democratic because it put an absurdly complex decision on a big part of the population which has not even remotely the competence to decide on the matter.

As you see it is not all white or black.

Post reply on HN