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CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#101

Post by drdrey »

mcbits wrote: post #99
mikestew wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a myth What's a myth, that torture doesn't work? Imma need a citation on that one, because I've got stacks of 'em to the contrary.

Most people will hand over their wallet, phone, car keys, passwords, and spill their darkest secrets if you just point a toy gun at them and raise your voice. Some won't, but saying "torture doesn't work" as a blanket statement implies that they all have infinite pain tolerance.

People will also confess to anything and say whatever they think you want to hear under torture.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#102

Post by Gatsky »

mcbits wrote: post #99
mikestew wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a myth What's a myth, that torture doesn't work? Imma need a citation on that one, because I've got stacks of 'em to the contrary.

Most people will hand over their wallet, phone, car keys, passwords, and spill their darkest secrets if you just point a toy gun at them and raise your voice. Some won't, but saying "torture doesn't work" as a blanket statement implies that they all have infinite pain tolerance.

Most people are carrying a wallet, phone, car keys.

How many people that get tortured actually know anything?

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#103

Post by crankylinuxuser »

learc83 wrote: post #100
merpnderp wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely because he leads with “Muslim ban,” which sounds ignorant. Most people who agree with the ban realize it is a temporary ban on countries requested by DHS because there currently is no valid process for doing background checks on people from those countries. So yeah I can see why he fails to change minds.

Regardless of what Trump actually implemented. During the campaign he called for a Muslim ban. "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on." >We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. The OP is saying that close to half the voters…

Well, it makes a great deal of sense in using "Muslim Ban". You 'otherize' them, you set them up against "You", and then you discriminate against them because they hate and want violence against you.

It's also hard to go against this, as we've been at war with the Middle East since Desert Storm - only a ceasefire was called. And then later add on extremist moslems during September 11 attacks, and yeah.. It's a perfect firestorm of justifiable hatred of a religion by a great many people.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#104

Post by learc83 »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

We used to live in an age where more than half the population thought that separate bathrooms for Black people was as good idea. It seems bad now, but we're a hell of a lot better off than we were a few generations ago on the human rights front and the only way to make things better is to keep trying.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#105

Post by mcbits »

drdrey wrote: post #101
mcbits wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people will hand over their wallet, phone, car keys, passwords, and spill their darkest secrets if you just point a toy gun at them and raise your voice. Some won't, but saying "torture doesn't work" as a blanket statement implies that they all have infinite pain tolerance.

People will also confess to anything and say whatever they think you want to hear under torture.

Sure, it doesn't always work. Some people will also withstand torture and take their secrets to the grave. But "torture doesn't always work" is a far cry from "torture doesn't work."

A more believable amoral/utilitarian argument against torture is that there will always be a more effective method than torture available. That's probably also wrong, but at least it's not so obviously wrong on its face.

The problem with the argument is that if a would-be torturer finds evidence that torture is the most effective method in some circumstance, they will feel vindicated in using it. I think a better argument is "regardless of effectiveness, anyone crossing this line is a dangerous and despicable person, and shall be prosecuted."

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#106

Post by 1024core »

sanderjd wrote: post #43
IIAOPSW wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

I largely share your incredulity, but allow me to make a more optimistic counterpoint. I frequently change my mind, which is proof that one or more people out there are changing at least one person's mind. And here's the thing: in nearly all cases, the person or, more often, the people who change my mind never know it. I am often stubborn in the moment and unwilling to admit I've been swayed. More often, I don't real…

> I frequently change my mind,

Don't take this as a personal comment, but the ability to change ones mind based on changing facts is one of the characteristics of liberals. Conservatives, on the other hand, by definition are known for not changing their minds.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#107

Post by berdario »

jonnybgood wrote: post #95
rdtsc wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill anyone suspected of terrorism. Not only that but after receiving a Nobel Peace Prize he proceeded to engage in drone warfare. Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries which we were not even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how little flak he…

> Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries which we were not even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how little flak he got for it Do you know who he dropped bombs on and why? You make it sound like he dropped bombs for the fun of it.

I'm not sure about the parent's stats and all the factions that would've been the targets...

But those who actually got bombs dropped on them... could be literally anyone

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-am-on-the-us-kill-list...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-air-stri...

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#108

Post by afjl »

jonnybgood wrote: post #95
rdtsc wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill anyone suspected of terrorism. Not only that but after receiving a Nobel Peace Prize he proceeded to engage in drone warfare. Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries which we were not even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how little flak he…

> Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries which we were not even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how little flak he got for it Do you know who he dropped bombs on and why? You make it sound like he dropped bombs for the fun of it.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything in the thread, much less my comment.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#109

Post by totalZero »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #20
knz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

> Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind?

Engage them directly, wait until the next conversation on the topic in a group, and hang back. Sometimes you'll be surprised. People don't always change their minds immediately, but this is to be expected -- it is a means to protect the ego.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#110

Post by Natsu »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #20
knz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

If you want to know if you've probably changed someone's opinion, look for evidence of confusion. That said, you may not find any obvious tell unless they say something.
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