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CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#81

Post by shadowbantruth »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

Full population. You do realize that Obama had the exact same ban in place and there was no protest anywhere?

Please downvoted away (I've been shadow banned for just this before) but this is a fact.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#82

Post by mcguire »

ImSkeptical wrote: post #67
maxxxxx wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real life is not an action movie. Your scenario is totally made up and has probably almost never happened.

I hope my scenario has never happened, but nothing about it is implausible. The point though is to illustrate that there are moments where pragmatism must trump laws and values. If you look, there are many times throughout history where such tradeoffs have been made. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/ The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy lists a real life example along the lines of my hypothetical one. In…

Where do you draw the line? If torture is acceptable in some circumstances, why isn't it in others? If torturing a car thief is ok, why not in a random stop-and-frisk?

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#83

Post by whatshisface »

rdtsc wrote: post #76
jnbiche wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? I know the question wasn't directed at me, and it's not with respect to the proposed Muslim ban, but I have changed the mind of some of the voters from this general background: specifically, would-be Roy Moore voters. I convinced a good handful of them not to vote for him[1]. And as far as I know, they stayed home. T…

I forgot where I read it, maybe on the Southern Poverty Law Center's site, but I could be wrong, but they were talking about a similar thing -- how to convince people to change their mind. The example was about how to change people's opinion in regard to transgender people. The idea was similar -- beating them on the head with 140-character sarcastic blurbs, showing stats and facts, insulting etc, just doesn't work.…

I'm still waiting for a TV commercial to tell me the story of a kid whose parents lost their jobs due to emissions restrictions. Anectodes work perfectly - it's terrifying, because they work in any direction equally well.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#84

Post by xkcd-sucks »

mcguire wrote: post #78
matte_black wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a myth, if you’re looking for objective verifiable facts you can get some useful information. Also, if you have enough statistical data on torture methods, you can have a probability that a person doesn’t know something based on how long they’ve been actively tortured.

" ...probability that a person doesn’t know something based on how long they’ve been actively tortured. " I, actually, have nothing I can say to that. Are you listening to yourself?

I mean, the APA does promote good research and also supported torture up until recently when it started attracting attention and became politically untenable. To the extent that it is possible to optimize torture, it has probably been optimized by some pretty competent people.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#85

Post by mikestew »

matte_black wrote: post #57
paganel wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Torture doesn't provide any valuable intelligence results for those doing the torturing, we're not living in "24", the TV series. I know for sure that if I were to be tortured I'd be ready to recognize even the killing of the biblical character Abel if those doing the torturing would ask that from me, and I guess I'm not the only person so predisposed.

That’s a myth, if you’re looking for objective verifiable facts you can get some useful information. Also, if you have enough statistical data on torture methods, you can have a probability that a person doesn’t know something based on how long they’ve been actively tortured.

That’s a myth

What's a myth, that torture doesn't work? Imma need a citation on that one, because I've got stacks of 'em to the contrary.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#86

Post by dsfyu404ed »

rdtsc wrote: post #76
jnbiche wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? I know the question wasn't directed at me, and it's not with respect to the proposed Muslim ban, but I have changed the mind of some of the voters from this general background: specifically, would-be Roy Moore voters. I convinced a good handful of them not to vote for him[1]. And as far as I know, they stayed home. T…

I forgot where I read it, maybe on the Southern Poverty Law Center's site, but I could be wrong, but they were talking about a similar thing -- how to convince people to change their mind. The example was about how to change people's opinion in regard to transgender people. The idea was similar -- beating them on the head with 140-character sarcastic blurbs, showing stats and facts, insulting etc, just doesn't work.…

Numbers, statistics and well reasoned argument can certainly mold someone's opinion on a subject if it's not one they're passionate about one way or the other.

Most of the pro-gun liberals I know said they didn't have a strong opinion on the subject and they found the pro-gun numbers and stats less filled with dishonest trickery than the anti-gun numbers and stats.

With most issues most people don't care much. These are the people who you can convince to have a baseline opinion that is (for example) against the CIA shipping people off to be tortured with carefully reasoned argument. It's like how most people believe man-made climate change is a thing to some extent. They don't care strongly but a couple decades of numbers and facts have influenced the baseline opinion of those people.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#87

Post by maxxxxx »

ImSkeptical wrote: post #75
maxxxxx wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they should be honest, explain the situation and torture people at home with their own specialists immediately and not fly to them to some country with questionable torturing skills.

I think you're confusing my position, and the contents of my comments, with something else.

I think I understand your position. In the scenario you describe any kind of violence/torture needs to be done quickly to avert the situation. Otherwise it's too late. If the CIA renditions were based on something similar they shouldn't fly people to questionable countries but instead interrogate themselves quickly because times is of essence. Everything else would be irresponsible.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#88

Post by matte_black »

mcguire wrote: post #78
matte_black wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a myth, if you’re looking for objective verifiable facts you can get some useful information. Also, if you have enough statistical data on torture methods, you can have a probability that a person doesn’t know something based on how long they’ve been actively tortured.

" ...probability that a person doesn’t know something based on how long they’ve been actively tortured. " I, actually, have nothing I can say to that. Are you listening to yourself?

I do not doubt that there is some mathematics behind modern torture, we've come a long way from the days of gruesome medieval torture which was mostly punitive. Given the data we have on what has worked in the past, and cross-referencing it with a person's time under torture, we can reduce or even eliminate the intensity of torture after a certain confidence threshold has been crossed.

Let's be clear, torture is an unpleasant technique and should only be an absolute last resort when everything else has failed, but it's far better to be tortured by people who know what they're doing and are only trying to get information out of you, than by people whose goal is simply to hurt you (often for no reason and with no stopping point).

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#89

Post by tw04 »

matte_black wrote: post #57
paganel wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Torture doesn't provide any valuable intelligence results for those doing the torturing, we're not living in "24", the TV series. I know for sure that if I were to be tortured I'd be ready to recognize even the killing of the biblical character Abel if those doing the torturing would ask that from me, and I guess I'm not the only person so predisposed.

That’s a myth, if you’re looking for objective verifiable facts you can get some useful information. Also, if you have enough statistical data on torture methods, you can have a probability that a person doesn’t know something based on how long they’ve been actively tortured.

>, if you’re looking for objective verifiable facts you can get some useful information.

If you're getting "verifiable" facts, you didn't need to torture him/her in the first place... you were just being lazy in your reconnaissance.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#90

Post by remind_me_again »

knz wrote: post #18
IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

Yes, educate fellow citizens. Here's a material for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsfROmgVN5U

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