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The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

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Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#141

Post by notdonspaulding »

lovemenot wrote: post #128
virmundi wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am happy with my faith. I've gone through a crisis of it. I've come out much stronger on the other side. Specifically to the extreme, during that time I re-evaluated possible philosophic systems. I am an absolutist. I think there is Truth. Without a god, I needed to see if there was any system that provided a similar world view. Existential nihilism does. It says that the only fact we have is that nothing fundament…

>> If I were to throw away one system of belief with that behavior, why would I adopt another? You seem comfortable with the arbitrariness of your faith now. So why not any other? A hypothetical true-believer in the Flying Spaghetti Monster would (by most reasonable criteria) be moving in the right direction if he/she were to become a Christian instead. Even though both faiths may be unanchored, there are wider consi…

The Christian faith is anything but arbitrary. It is predicated on the Bible being true, and the Bible is a collection of documents, many of which are grounded in specific points of both space and time.

In particular, the factual claims about Christ, his life, his death, his resurrection are central to any evangelical Christian's faith. Disprove them and it's game over for Christianity. Paul says as much in his letter to the early church in Corinth [0]. Beyond factual claims about Christ, there are many other sections of the Bible which would become fatal to the central Christian message were they proven false. (The flood, the plagues in Egypt, the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt, the prophecies in Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, etc.)[1].

Start with any one of them and offer a credible disproof and you can go down in the history books as the person responsible for dismantling the arbitrary Christian faith.

[0]: https://www.bible.com/bible/59/1co.15:14-19

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_messianic_prophecy#V...

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#142

Post by xupybd »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #38
tootie wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what makes most religions so inflexible is having a canon which can be difficult to circumvent. If a secular order is based on the opinions of the founders who are treated as wise humans instead of divine, it becomes easier to accept that they could be wrong or just misinformed.

On the other hand, that inflexibility may be what just makes it work. Being held to the same strict standard makes the community much stronger.

Based on my own reflections on the Christian community I am part of, I'd have to agree. I believe one of the things holds the community together is that every sticks to the same set of rules. And is willing to change if they find they are living outside of the rules. Not everyone's cup of tea but it's a life I enjoy. Perhaps similar systems outside of religion could help people.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#143

Post by lovemenot »

virmundi wrote: post #134
lovemenot wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If I were to throw away one system of belief with that behavior, why would I adopt another? You seem comfortable with the arbitrariness of your faith now. So why not any other? A hypothetical true-believer in the Flying Spaghetti Monster would (by most reasonable criteria) be moving in the right direction if he/she were to become a Christian instead. Even though both faiths may be unanchored, there are wider consi…

I do see how one can say it's arbitrary. There is a set of rules that we didn't make, that a god imposes on us. We may know why for some rules. We might not know others. The system could be called arbitrary. My reason is entirely based on experience. I have not felt the spirit of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, nor his noodlely appendage. I have felt the Spirit. This makes it not arbitrary. It's rooted in God. It's roo…

This is a cordial conversation and I have no desire to be the first turn it mean. So please read the following in the most charitable light.

You seem to apply two standards. To yourself, your personal experience is sufficient. Yet from others, a more rigorous justification is expected.

By analogy: if I were Japanese, I would definitely prefer Buddhism over Shinto. Yet, I am not Japanese, which rather undermines my argument. Under such hypothetical circumstances my perspective would surely be other than it actually is now.

The reason I pursue this point is that, historically, people with faith have argued unreasonably that the only viable alternative to their unique faith is [name_a_specific_extreme_and_scary_philosophical_position_here]. To be fair, if you are doing this at all, you are doing so only subtly.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#144

Post by lovemenot »

notdonspaulding wrote: post #141
lovemenot wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If I were to throw away one system of belief with that behavior, why would I adopt another? You seem comfortable with the arbitrariness of your faith now. So why not any other? A hypothetical true-believer in the Flying Spaghetti Monster would (by most reasonable criteria) be moving in the right direction if he/she were to become a Christian instead. Even though both faiths may be unanchored, there are wider consi…

The Christian faith is anything but arbitrary. It is predicated on the Bible being true, and the Bible is a collection of documents, many of which are grounded in specific points of both space and time. In particular, the factual claims about Christ, his life, his death, his resurrection are central to any evangelical Christian's faith. Disprove them and it's game over for Christianity. Paul says as much in his lette…

This will go nowhere. Any argument I make will likely be skewered on interpretations of "credible" or on which parts of the Bible you choose to defend or which parts should be taken literally and which figuratively.

Anyway, let's try starting at one of the most obvious. I understand the Bible says the world was created in 7 days. Has that been credibly disproven yet?

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#145

Post by mrslave »

Free market solutions to community need, such as the charitable foundations you enumerate, have been crowded out by state monopolization.

Hospitals are also too quickly forgotten: Catholic and Masonic.

There was also a great article in The Economist recently (linked on HN?) about cheap & effective market schooling in the third world.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#147

Post by evincarofautumn »

Nursie wrote: post #42

I, personally, don't have a hole in my life where religion should be. I know people that do, many of them come from religious backgrounds and seek something to replace the religious structure that used to be in their lives. But I .... just don't.

And that’s okay!

My trans friend recently moved to stay with me in California. Her experiences, and the experiences of others, have helped me realise that gender is really important to many people—and I just don’t have a slot for it in my personality.

Same goes for religion—my folks tried to teach me about their religious background from a young age, but I never had the ability to believe in it.

I just try to respect people, and shut my opinion-hole and acknowledge when I just don’t get it.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#149

Post by grogenaut »

derekdahmer wrote: post #57
hyperion2010 wrote: post #2

Boy, that list looks pretty similar to the principles of Unitarian Universalism (full disclosure, born and raised). The suggestions are good but if we look at the history of the Unitarian Universalism it was heralded by various scholars as the secular religion for the coming enlightened future. None of that has happened and the fastest growing religious communities these days are fundamentalist, evangelical Christian…

I was also born and raised UU and still appreciate the values of tolerance and education that came out of that. What other church offers its own fact-based sex ed course and has you visit other religious institutions as a requirement for coming of age? But despite there being UU churches in every major city I've lived in, I haven't been back in a serious way since high school. For me at least, part of the 'implementa…

My Episcopal sunday school made the whole class to go services and sunday school (or equivalent) for every major christian denomination and every major non-christan religion. About 25 sundays in a row. If you missed you made it up. We also had 100 question tests on major tenets of the other major world relgions. Same for the Catholic Marianist school I went to. The idea was, we want you to understand why you are chosing this religion (even if it's mostly automatic because your parents are encouragining you). You couldn't be confirmed if you couldn't pass these tests. You also had to go to conselling with the very nice and understanding teachers to talk about if you really wanted to do it. One kid didn't go through with it on purpose. The teachers were very good with handling the parents and making this easier on the kid.

I really liked the Marianist and Jesuit idea that you should be able to challenge your religion so much that you have to come to logically understand and accept it; They are both great at Logical argument and reduction, especially about faith.

I think this type of introspection helped me quite a bit as an engineer even if it didn't work in making me a faithful person.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#150

Post by eli_gottlieb »

virmundi wrote: post #120
lovemenot wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may not be reading you correctly, but I understand you to be coming from a position of faith and happy therein (for now). If so, your standpoint makes sense to me. I imagine you may feel it would take a good deal of momentum to cross the boundary at the edge of your faith. A nihilist alternative may also act as a warning of the scary outside to those still on the inside. Nevertheless, it is not actually necessary t…

I am happy with my faith. I've gone through a crisis of it. I've come out much stronger on the other side. Specifically to the extreme, during that time I re-evaluated possible philosophic systems. I am an absolutist. I think there is Truth. Without a god, I needed to see if there was any system that provided a similar world view. Existential nihilism does. It says that the only fact we have is that nothing fundament…

That's... very stupid. You really ought to read some strong naturalism, a worldview predicated on the view that, indeed, there is a truth, and it is Nature, which can be examined and learned-about through all the normal methods.
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