The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution • Hacker News Board

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#31

Post by brandonmenc » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

dd9990 wrote: post #21

brandonmenc wrote: post #14

> Ritualize No thanks. This is the first thing I started to dislike about being raised Catholic, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I'm the opposite - I miss the community and its events. There's a growing Humanist community where I live precisely for that reason. The vast majority of the population are Catholic so life revolves around Catholic rituals, whether we like it or not. It's great to have secular alternatives for marriages, funerals and baptisms.

I attend both religious and secular weddings and funerals, and no one seems to be missing a beat.

As an agnostic, I've never thought, "we need an alternative." That probably has to do with the fact that marriages and funerals, even religious ones, are already highly personal, custom affairs.

> secular alternatives for [...] baptisms

An initiation ceremony for secularism? I find that bizarre.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#32

Post by return0 » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 7:00 PM UTC

Alain de botton has pondered about this as well. http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0?languag...

Rituals, let's just call them recurrent events, are a great way to bring people together. When people get together lots of good things can happen. However it has to be tied to something that people care about, not just some made-up gathering without purpose. The ancient greek agora comes to mind.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#33

Post by ngoldbaum » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 7:05 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #25

The US used to have that. You can still see the remnants if you look. Rotary International, Kiwanis International, the Independent Order of Foresters, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, the National Grange of the Order of Patrons of Husbandry - all those secular fraternal organizations still exist. The core of these organizations was small business owners, a group which once ran their…

The four-way test doesn't seem archaic at all. Why do you say that?

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#34

Post by rch » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 7:08 PM UTC

brandonmenc wrote: post #31

dd9990 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the opposite - I miss the community and its events. There's a growing Humanist community where I live precisely for that reason. The vast majority of the population are Catholic so life revolves around Catholic rituals, whether we like it or not. It's great to have secular alternatives for marriages, funerals and baptisms.

I attend both religious and secular weddings and funerals, and no one seems to be missing a beat. As an agnostic, I've never thought, "we need an alternative." That probably has to do with the fact that marriages and funerals, even religious ones, are already highly personal, custom affairs. > secular alternatives for [...] baptisms An initiation ceremony for secularism? I find that bizarre.

secularism begins at conception :)

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#35

Post by x3n0ph3n3 » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 7:12 PM UTC

ngoldbaum wrote: post #33

Animats wrote: post #25

The US used to have that. You can still see the remnants if you look. Rotary International, Kiwanis International, the Independent Order of Foresters, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, the National Grange of the Order of Patrons of Husbandry - all those secular fraternal organizations still exist. The core of these organizations was small business owners, a group which once ran their…

The four-way test doesn't seem archaic at all. Why do you say that?

> Will it be BENEFICIAL to all concerned?

I'd like to promote activities that are detrimental to some institutions and beneficial to others because I believe there are institutions that should be dismantled.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#36

Post by danielvf » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 7:15 PM UTC

The first half of the article matches my experience.

I'm a software developer living in the (American) South. We just had our fourth child. A few days later my wife had some complications. We went to the hospital, taking the newborn with us. The first week, pre-hospital, I was averaging four hour of sleep a night, but then in the hospital that went down to two hours of sleep in two days. (Wife was not able to hold the newborn, we weren't in the maternity area, I needed to chase down absent doctors, etc).

Since we've been back from the hospital there's been a non-stop train of people from our church bringing food (three different people one day), teenagers to watch the older kids so we can sleep in the day, and sometimes grandmothers came to hold the new one too. The lawn has been mowed by somebody who just showed up and started mowing.

This wasn't even organized - someone just sent out an email saying we needed help, and people we knew started showing up left and right.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#37

Post by tome » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 7:20 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #10

cyorir wrote: post #4

I wonder if an "organized secularism" would only copy some the problems found in organized religion. Do people become less religious only because of a rejection of the supernatural, or for other reasons as well? I think some people become less religious for two additional reasons as well: "shared values" and "rituals." A set of shared values is nice until it fails to change in response to changes in the values of ind…

I think what makes most religions so inflexible is having a canon which can be difficult to circumvent. If a secular order is based on the opinions of the founders who are treated as wise humans instead of divine, it becomes easier to accept that they could be wrong or just misinformed.

I'm sadly skeptical, given how much weight Americans seem to give to the intentions of the founding fathers when it comes to discussing the constitution.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#38

Post by TeMPOraL » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 7:23 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #10

cyorir wrote: post #4

I wonder if an "organized secularism" would only copy some the problems found in organized religion. Do people become less religious only because of a rejection of the supernatural, or for other reasons as well? I think some people become less religious for two additional reasons as well: "shared values" and "rituals." A set of shared values is nice until it fails to change in response to changes in the values of ind…

I think what makes most religions so inflexible is having a canon which can be difficult to circumvent. If a secular order is based on the opinions of the founders who are treated as wise humans instead of divine, it becomes easier to accept that they could be wrong or just misinformed.

On the other hand, that inflexibility may be what just makes it work. Being held to the same strict standard makes the community much stronger.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#39

Post by wyager » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 7:24 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #30

cyorir wrote: post #4

I wonder if an "organized secularism" would only copy some the problems found in organized religion. Do people become less religious only because of a rejection of the supernatural, or for other reasons as well? I think some people become less religious for two additional reasons as well: "shared values" and "rituals." A set of shared values is nice until it fails to change in response to changes in the values of ind…

>Do people become less religious only because of a rejection of the supernatural, or for other reasons as well? Sociologically, people mostly become less religious when they feel that they control their own fate, and feel no need to ask for divine intervention. Hence why societies grow less religious as they grow rich and egalitarian , while highly unequal and/or poor societies have a tendency towards greater levels…

What makes you think it's because of a sense of control, as opposed to, say, increased education? This correlates highly with increased wealth.

Re: The World Needs a Secular Community Revolution

#40

Post by VLM » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

miander wrote: post #17

brandonmenc wrote: post #14

> Ritualize No thanks. This is the first thing I started to dislike about being raised Catholic, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I think he meant more along the lines of "having a wedding" or "having a funeral" than "sacrificing a cow" (but pardon my ignorance of Catholic rituals).

"sacrificing a cow"

Also see sports as ritual, fellowship with the boys coming over and grill some brats and burgers while consuming mind altering substances while watching a ritual. Burnt Offering. Stereotypical non-sports party is almost as ritualistic.