Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#351

Post by amag » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 10:34 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #174

alkonaut wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The oil doesnt' really make that much difference in Norway. They tend to keep most of the money in a state reserve to not create too much inflation. Subsitute Norway for non-oil Sweden, a country with huge immigration. Sure it's a small and "rich" country, but the cultural things like good work/life balance applies anyway. Edit: as was pointed out to me in another comment: this is using a loose definition of "life" w…

> The oil doesnt' really make that much difference in Norway. They tend to keep most of the money in a state reserve to not create too much inflation. It absolutely does make a difference to have the world's largest sovereign wealth fund[0], as well as the economic status that allows you to leave it untouched. Simply having guaranteed future access to that kind of wealth changes your political and economic options to…

> On top of that, they face incredible racism and xenophobia.

Going slightly OT here but I'm pretty sure that racism/xenophobia against muslims in Sweden is no worse than elsewhere. I'm not saying things are peachy, but incredible seems like an overstatement in this case.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#352

Post by Cthulhu_ » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 10:34 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #180

noja wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. You have to be kidding me. The average standard of living in the US is not the fourth best in the world. The US only got universal heathcare this century, it has a ludicrous work-life balance, the minimum wage in some states is very low (and sometimes includes tipping!), the infant mortality rate is lower…

In fact America does have one of the highest standards of living. It also has one of the highest median incomes, and among the highest disposable incomes. OECD better life index: http://i.imgur.com/ekhWXeG.png Maternity leave is common in America. You are free to choose your job based on the benefits you desire, including vacation time and maternity leave. Switzerland and Germany to name two, are famous for not havin…

> In fact America does have one of the highest standards of living. It also has one of the highest median incomes, and among the highest disposable incomes.

For the top X percent maybe; the US also has a poverty rate of over 16% [1], over half a million homeless [2], food stamps programs to support the poor, etc.

> You are free to choose your job based on the benefits you desire, including vacation time and maternity leave.

Do tell that to the big employers like McD's & co (who are now replacing their employees with order computers after they asked/demanded a minimum wage), Wal-mart, Amazon, etc. There's far too many people who do not have the luxury of choice - and even if they did, they can't get the education they'd need to get hired anywhere unless they have rich parents or happened to be eligible for a grant from somewhere.

And as long as people that don't tip in restaurants and such get mistreated or scoffed upon, don't even start about minimum wages.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Sta...

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#353

Post by geff82 » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 10:35 PM UTC

jkot wrote: post #27

I think article skips anything negative. For start "lunch hour" is mandatory and in reality it means you spend extra hour at work. I would rather spend a hour with my kid than eating with my boss. Second the taxation leaves various compulsory "contributions": social, pension, wealth, tv, petrol etc. It is not 5% but more likely 50% of average salary. And third, I have totally different experience with american compan…

wrong in some aspects. As in most European countries an hour off at noon is mandatory, so you can't leave early for family. Tax is indeed not 5% (only the federal part), but rather 10-20% depending on where you live and how much you make. Including social contributions you can expect to go 25-30% away.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#354

Post by alkonaut » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 10:35 PM UTC

bsaul wrote: post #49

Nobody here mentions anying about the very peculiar banking system that let the swiss economy get a huge chunk of the illegaly made money of the world? Of course, you can have a very generous social security system and a great transport infrastructure when you've been financed by crime for decades. It's probably not the only reason of course, and we surely have many smart things to learn from this country.

The discussion, quite correctly, isn't about Switzerland vs. the U.S. but about northern/Western Europe vs the U.S. since everything in the article applies pretty generally (sometimes even more) also e.g in the Nordic countries.

Some outliers (Norway, Switzerland) have weird economies, but others such as Finland don't.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#355

Post by Cthulhu_ » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 10:38 PM UTC

digi_owl wrote: post #105

hans0l074 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since 2001 I've lived and worked in Finland, Denmark & Sweden. Achieving a healthy & meaningful work-life balance is emphasized in the Nordic countries (I do not know about Luxembourg) The authors experience in Switzerland strikes a familiar chord with me. I have close friends in the Valley who envy me because I get 6 weeks a year off. I don't think this article is necessarily about high salaries and the luxuries you…

Sadly there are concerted political effort being focused on going American in the Nordics, as the current system is considered "inefficient". Even the supposed left is in on the game, pulling a double talk akin to UK's Labor...

That's because the benefits are expensive, from a capitalistic point of view - six weeks maternity leave? That's six weeks of lost productivity!

I think it's important that everyone keeps defending the liberties and rights that we (in Europe) have right now - and that the people in the US that just accept their shitty working environments because it's considered normal fight it, and demand what I think is getting basic human rights like caring for your newborn without losing your job or getting into financial trouble over it.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#356

Post by Cthulhu_ » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 10:40 PM UTC

lispm wrote: post #140

blfr wrote: post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

Basically every country in Europe will give you longer vacations, standard health care, shorter working hours, ... In some countries you might even get worker's rights like workers councils, unions on the board, ... If you work for example for Volkswagen, every factory in the world will have strong unions, only the US factory won't.

What I recall is that the US used to have strong unions too - although my view of that may be skewed by TV and such.

Nowadays though people can get fired if they join a union, which is why shit companies like McD's and Wal-mart get to continue to exploit their employees. I mean "associates".

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#357

Post by justwannasing » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 10:40 PM UTC

She works almost seven days a week and blames the US for that? Never in my life have I worked seven days in a week, and I own my own business! (Granted, I did when we started up for a few months.)

And then she claims her $30,000 salary, at seven days a week, turns out to be the equivalent of minimum wage? On which planet? At $7.25 an hour, times 56 hours (7 days at 8 hours per day) times 52 weeks (though she got 10 days off) equals $21,112.

This article is of ill repute.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#358

Post by alkonaut » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 10:42 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #119

blfr wrote: post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

I think you're getting entirely the wrong message from the article. It's not about whether it's possible to reproduce Switzerland's standard of living in America. It's about asking some difficult questions about the fundamental aspects of American work culture and how they can be changed for the better. For example, why isn't there mandatory paid maternity and paternity leave in America? Why does the culture essentia…

Why the hell is the U.S. Presidential campaigns about which clown did the fewest embarrassing gaffes, rather than who can actually stand up and promise to do something, like "If I'm elected, 3 weeks paid holiday will be the new minimum"?

Are business interests too strong? Is everyone afraid to be labelled "socialist" and thereby disqualified if suggesting something worker-friendly?

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#359

Post by Cthulhu_ » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 10:43 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #271

gregsq wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a dual national UK/Australian resident in the US. If I were to find that I needed serious medical attention, I'd be on the plane back to either country as soon as I could. Out of interest I'll look up how much it costs to rent a jet and pilot.

Of course you would! Anyone in their right minds would. I still don't understand why the USA has such a lousy healthcare system[1] and why people don't demand something more appropriate. [1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386032/

Probably the same reason why people stay in North-Korea - they don't know any better, or they keep believing in the nationalist propaganda that the US is the best country EVAr.

Thanks for linking that, Roger Moore may be controversial, but he does a good job of pointing out why the reality of the US just doesn't match up to its propaganda.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#360

Post by brewdad » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 10:44 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #267

rhino369 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income PPP adjusted also doesn't factor in taxes. Things like free tuition are paid for by much higher rates. Healthcare is usually part of compensation packages in America. I'm not sure if that gets included in gross income. My main problem with quality of life indexes is they tend to overvalue income equality. It's true that income inequality is generally associated with poor countries but the USA is clearly an out…

> Healthcare is usually part of compensation packages in America. For certain jobs. Many don't provide healthcare. > Things like free tuition are paid for by much higher rates. Higher rates in higher income brackets. Not across the board.

Are tax rates really that much higher though? In my state, middle class pays 25% Federal income tax plus 9% state income tax plus 6.2% SSI tax plus 2.9% Medicare tax plus 0.5% transit tax. That's 43.6%.