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Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

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Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#161

Post by sampo »

alkonaut wrote: post #124
sampo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, if my job is very close to my house. I'd guess that is indeed quite common in Switzerland. So having a 1 hour lunch break in the middle of the day makes sense for them, but would not make sense in the US, where much longer commutes are the norm.

The commutes are just the other side of the same coin: The way the US treats it's work/life balance has had deeper consequences. If you aren't expected to leave the kids to school and also have dinner with them at 5pm, then you might just as well work a long day. And since you are working late anyway, you could just as well have a longer commute. On a weekday, work is expected to be a full day. Not just half the day.…

> The 2yo will be asleep when you come home anyway.

This implies only one of the parents goes to work?

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#162

Post by adventured »

fab13n wrote: post #117
blfr wrote: post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

Reading this as a European, it's fun and telling that you focused on salary differences, whereas what mattered to me were the other quality-of-life elements (I assume you're living in the US). To sum up, what matters to me, in what she described, were the consequences of the belief that one shouldn't be ashamed of having a life outside of work, and needing some time and peace of mind to actually enjoy it. More money…

In America you can choose your job based on how you want to live. You can pursue your life and goals based on what you want out of it. Is that not true in Switzerland?

I think you've bought into little more than propaganda. Americans take off weekends. And how do you judge 330 million people when it comes to burn-out, given the vast differences among them all?

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#163

Post by jareds »

Havoc wrote: post #134
bdcravens wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As disingenuous as comparing a small country to the US as a whole.

>As disingenuous as comparing a small country to the US as a whole. Why? Countries seem to scale pretty well. A social structure that works well in one city can work well in 200 cities.

A social structure that works well in a city of 100000 people will not be able to work the same way as a city with a population of close to 4000000.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#164

Post by jfoutz »

staz wrote: post #101
blfr wrote: post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

The three first Google results for 'Quality of Life index' put the USA at the 16, 12 and 10th place. While salary in Italy, France and Germany may not be as high as in Switzerland, they all have longer maternity leave, bigger number of vacation, better public transportation and better benefits than in the USA

Sane health care is the biggest one.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#165

Post by mike_hearn »

Sfi81 wrote: post #113
blfr wrote: post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

Well you have to remember that the Swiss have both better income sources (assisting the world's wealthy & many corporations evade/optimize taxes for instance) and don't have military expenses and such due to neutrality. While many problems of the US are of its own creation due to either ideology or wealth dominating politics (healthcare & education spring to mind), it is quite unfair to compare what the Swiss governm…

It's a common meme. The entire financial industry is only about 11% of the GDP (or around 7% if you use a different statistical method). That includes insurance, pensions, etc.

The idea that Switzerland is propped up by tax evasion simply isn't true. The UK thought it was true and actually wrote proceeds from better Swiss cooperation over banking records into their budget .... then discovered there was a huge shortfall, because there was much less evasion done that way than they had imagined.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#166

Post by DasIch »

blfr wrote: post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

Standard of living has barely any useful meaning. The US has a relatively high standard of living sure but in practice you only get to enjoy that, if you are at least middle class.

In Switzerland or anywhere else in Europe (excluding the east) you enjoy all the benefits mentioned in the article no matter what income or job you happen to have.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#167

Post by Amezarak »

hans0l074 wrote: post #94
blfr wrote: post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

Since 2001 I've lived and worked in Finland, Denmark & Sweden. Achieving a healthy & meaningful work-life balance is emphasized in the Nordic countries (I do not know about Luxembourg) The authors experience in Switzerland strikes a familiar chord with me. I have close friends in the Valley who envy me because I get 6 weeks a year off. I don't think this article is necessarily about high salaries and the luxuries you…

> I have come to believe that there is a better work-life balance in certain northern european countries than anywhere in the U.S.A

It really depends.

I know several companies offering 6 weeks of paid leave, plus holidays, in my area.

On the other hand, that's certainly not the norm. There are many people working jobs which provide no paid holidays or vacation.

At my previous job it was expected that you'd work overtime and weekends if anything remotely important was going on (and not get flex time or anything like that to make up for it) for no extra pay. At my current job there is no such expectation at all and nobody does it. Critical events wait until Monday.

My perception is things are especially bad in startup culture/the valley, but that's not necessarily representative of the US.

I think the real difference between the US and European Country X is the lack of any universal minimum standards in the US. There is the federal minimum wage and the FMLA, and that's about it. There is no federal requirement for paid leave or maternity benefits. But there are plenty of jobs with paid leave and maternity benefits (other than FMLA unpaid leave). So in reality, the work/life balance in America differs dramatically by locale, industry, and company.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#168

Post by joesmo »

rsync wrote: post #56
blfr wrote: post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

Exactly. I really do love switzerland, but a proper comparison would be to say, Marin County or Boulder or La Jolla. I think our pockets of "switzerland" stand up pretty well in comparison.

The difference is in Switzerland you don't have to be mega rich to have a good life and because those places don't have different laws than the rest of the US, they only compare if you're rich enough for laws not to matter, at which point it's a moot point. Even the rich won't get paid leave or sane taxes or decent working hours, so to be comparable the level of richness has to put one beyond the necessity of work. In other words, our pockets of Switzerland are no such thing.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#170

Post by alkonaut »

sampo wrote: post #161
alkonaut wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The commutes are just the other side of the same coin: The way the US treats it's work/life balance has had deeper consequences. If you aren't expected to leave the kids to school and also have dinner with them at 5pm, then you might just as well work a long day. And since you are working late anyway, you could just as well have a longer commute. On a weekday, work is expected to be a full day. Not just half the day.…

> The 2yo will be asleep when you come home anyway. This implies only one of the parents goes to work?

Yes, that is the second consequence of being expected to work >8h with 1h commutes - one parent stays home when you have kids.
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