New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries • Hacker News Board

Re: New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries

#51

Post by Crito » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 3:42 AM UTC

mturmon wrote: post #37

msandford wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OK then. It is insanely wasteful of water. It's only a "waste" if the water is scarce. People rarely talk about wasting air (except to call someone dumb) because the air is virtually unlimited. For example in the UK it's damn near impossible to waste water because it rains so consistently. Water isn't scarce. You can't really waste it, because there's always plenty more. Even if you could pipe the water from NYC al…

Some numbers: The current water rate for NYC is $3.81/hcf. For sewage, $6.06/hcf. The current water rate for LA is $5.23/hcf. For sewage, about $4.23/hcf. One "hcf" is 100 cubic feet, or about 748 gallons. Hopefully, the water sprayed from the hydrant is treated before being released. Most groundwater in LA is treated unless the rain overwhelms the treatment facility. This implies that in either case, the cost is abo…

Stolen water is conceptually distinct from wasted water.

People who use hydrants without paying for them are technically stealing that water, but they are not "wasting" it in any sense that actually matters to New York. Unlike in California, there is no risk of one day turning on your tap and having nothing come out. They, unlike California, are not running out of water.

> "Hopefully, the water sprayed from the hydrant is treated before being released. Most groundwater in LA is treated"

1) NYC does not use groundwater. The vast majority of their water comes from an extensive system of reservoirs, tunnels and aqueducts, gravity fed straight into the city.

2) Because their water comes reservoirs located in wilderness regions of New York, their water is naturally filtered and is pure enough to drink with next to no treatment. They only add chlorine to that water.

3) The water you get from a legally tapped fire hydrant is no different from the water you get from an illegally tapped fire hydrant.

Re: New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries

#52

Post by mturmon » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 4:48 AM UTC

Crito wrote: post #51

mturmon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some numbers: The current water rate for NYC is $3.81/hcf. For sewage, $6.06/hcf. The current water rate for LA is $5.23/hcf. For sewage, about $4.23/hcf. One "hcf" is 100 cubic feet, or about 748 gallons. Hopefully, the water sprayed from the hydrant is treated before being released. Most groundwater in LA is treated unless the rain overwhelms the treatment facility. This implies that in either case, the cost is abo…

Stolen water is conceptually distinct from wasted water. People who use hydrants without paying for them are technically stealing that water, but they are not "wasting" it in any sense that actually matters to New York. Unlike in California, there is no risk of one day turning on your tap and having nothing come out. They, unlike California, are not running out of water. > "Hopefully, the water sprayed from the hydra…

You missed my point regarding the groundwater. My point is that the runoff from the hydrant must be treated before being released, and that treatment has a cost, which is reflected in the sewage rates.

Your other points regarding the origins of NYC water don't affect my argument: despite the apparent effortlessness of getting the water to that Bronx hydrant, said water has a price which is substantially the same in NY as in other areas like CA.

Perhaps that value is of interest when deciding whether there is any significance to spraying loads of it out through a hydrant, versus being parsimonious (i.e., "waste").

Re: New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries

#53

Post by ossreality » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 5:36 AM UTC

GauntletWizard wrote: post #16

setpatchaddress wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a native Californian perspective, it just looks insanely wasteful of water. These are fed from some non-potable source, at least? ...Read TFA, nope. OK then. It is insanely wasteful of water.

Perhaps you should live in an area habitable to humans, then. New York's reservoirs are overflowing [1], and that's after they dump water. [1] http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/drinking_water/maplevels_wi...

WOW. You have the balls to post eugenic nonsense (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9970695) from an account easily tracked to your real identity. Those are some big, big balls. Congrats.

Re: New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries

#54

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:19 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #49

Avshalom wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's the fault of what ever cheap-ass contractor/landlord built/provisioned the place and was probably put in place well before California had a drought possibly even before people decided Phoenix was fit for human habitation.

I don't see what you're getting at. You're arguing that a contractor who put in a toilet (cheap or expensive... doesn't matter) 50 years ago is somehow at fault when it needs to be replaced with an unnecessarily expensive new toilet that meets California requirements? I've heard there's an active trade in bootleg Canadian toilets in the Pacific Northwest.

50 years? You'd have to have perfect water for a toilet to last 50 years of residential use. 15-20 in my area and they will be calcified without water treatment.

A Toto Drake isn't that much more than even a cheap builder-grade unit. I've been through a number of different ones and I am a stingy tightwad; and I'd still buy a Toto. There are cheaper ones that will flush the same amount of debris, but Totos wash the bowl better; and I appreciate that as someone who doesn't like to spend a lot of time scrubbing ahem "debris". I think their flush is quieter too, but I haven't measured it.

Re: New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries

#55

Post by Turing_Machine » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 5:56 PM UTC

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #54

Turing_Machine wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what you're getting at. You're arguing that a contractor who put in a toilet (cheap or expensive... doesn't matter) 50 years ago is somehow at fault when it needs to be replaced with an unnecessarily expensive new toilet that meets California requirements? I've heard there's an active trade in bootleg Canadian toilets in the Pacific Northwest.

50 years? You'd have to have perfect water for a toilet to last 50 years of residential use. 15-20 in my area and they will be calcified without water treatment. A Toto Drake isn't that much more than even a cheap builder-grade unit. I've been through a number of different ones and I am a stingy tightwad; and I'd still buy a Toto. There are cheaper ones that will flush the same amount of debris, but Totos wash the bo…

My last house was built in 1949, and the original toilet was working perfectly. The water quality there was far from good.

Calcium deposits are what toilet bowl cleaners are for.

According to my local Home Depot, a utility-grade toilet is $79, and the cheapest Toto Drake is $189. That's more than twice as much.

If you estimate that there's roughly one toilet per person in the United States, an extra hundred bucks per person comes out to 30 billion dollars wasted for each replacement cycle (except in the very limited areas, like California, where these things actually make sense).

Re: New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries

#56

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 2:49 AM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #55

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50 years? You'd have to have perfect water for a toilet to last 50 years of residential use. 15-20 in my area and they will be calcified without water treatment. A Toto Drake isn't that much more than even a cheap builder-grade unit. I've been through a number of different ones and I am a stingy tightwad; and I'd still buy a Toto. There are cheaper ones that will flush the same amount of debris, but Totos wash the bo…

My last house was built in 1949, and the original toilet was working perfectly. The water quality there was far from good. Calcium deposits are what toilet bowl cleaners are for . According to my local Home Depot, a utility-grade toilet is $79, and the cheapest Toto Drake is $189. That's more than twice as much. If you estimate that there's roughly one toilet per person in the United States, an extra hundred bucks pe…

Not the bowl, inside the water passages, they get constricted, the toilets lose their flush action. Sure, you can religiously pour muriatic acid down the things, but that will etch away the non-glazed surfaces, and metal sanitary piping (but it's good for roots). I'm pretty happy about my Toto toilets but I'm not getting commission or anything. I wouldn't fight you over it. You enjoy your $79 HD specials and your extra hundred bucks. Try not to spend it all in one place.

Re: New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries

#57

Post by Crito » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 4:45 AM UTC

mturmon wrote: post #52

Crito wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stolen water is conceptually distinct from wasted water. People who use hydrants without paying for them are technically stealing that water, but they are not "wasting" it in any sense that actually matters to New York. Unlike in California, there is no risk of one day turning on your tap and having nothing come out. They, unlike California, are not running out of water. > "Hopefully, the water sprayed from the hydra…

You missed my point regarding the groundwater. My point is that the runoff from the hydrant must be treated before being released, and that treatment has a cost, which is reflected in the sewage rates. Your other points regarding the origins of NYC water don't affect my argument: despite the apparent effortlessness of getting the water to that Bronx hydrant, said water has a price which is substantially the same in N…

Stealing sewage services still isn't "wasting water". It's regrettable, but I think NYC can withstand the additional budgetary strain caused by kids playing with hydrants.

> "despite the apparent effortlessness of getting the water to that Bronx hydrant, said water has a price which is substantially the same in NY as in other areas like CA."

That's just all the more proof of Californian's absolute insanity when it comes to distributing water.

Re: New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries

#58

Post by Turing_Machine » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 5:50 AM UTC

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #56

Turing_Machine wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last house was built in 1949, and the original toilet was working perfectly. The water quality there was far from good. Calcium deposits are what toilet bowl cleaners are for . According to my local Home Depot, a utility-grade toilet is $79, and the cheapest Toto Drake is $189. That's more than twice as much. If you estimate that there's roughly one toilet per person in the United States, an extra hundred bucks pe…

Not the bowl, inside the water passages, they get constricted, the toilets lose their flush action. Sure, you can religiously pour muriatic acid down the things, but that will etch away the non-glazed surfaces, and metal sanitary piping (but it's good for roots). I'm pretty happy about my Toto toilets but I'm not getting commission or anything. I wouldn't fight you over it. You enjoy your $79 HD specials and your ext…

I would rather that the $30 billion dollars (minimum) be spent in a lot of places, rather than being wasted on unnecessary toilets.

And no, the water passages in my 60 year old toilet weren't "constricted". It flushed fine. Likely still does.

Of course, your claim that toilets last only a few years only means more money wasted on these gizmos, not less.

But hey, you enjoy whatever sense of satisfaction you get out of spending money to solve a "problem" that is largely nonexistent, other than in California.

Re: New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries

#59

Post by AlexC04 » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 1:34 PM UTC

Facemelters wrote: post #30

AlexC04 wrote: post #7

OH my god! I've just had the greatest idea. It's like UBER for cracking open fire hydrants. See you all at the next YC pitch-day

Uber would just add a tab to their app.

of course! I was actually just trying to make a dumb joke though. "It's like uber for dumb jokes"