Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control • Hacker News Board

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#141

Post by tn13 » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:11 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #136

anotherangrydev wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Microsoft still essentially owns the desktop with Windows So what? That doesn't mean they are obliged to comply with whatever you think is "the right thing"®. I'm gonna highlight another another big difference that you seemed to overlook. Microsoft is a company, their mission is to generate profits for their shareholders and they are the owners of Windows 10, because they developed it. Mozilla is a non-profit corpor…

So what? That doesn't mean they are obliged to comply with whatever you think is "the right thing"®. Yes they are. Those who own one or another monopoly-type chokepoints are required to do the right thing in the sense of not abusing their monopolies. ISP are required to connect you to the real internet rather than a walled-garden simulation, Airline are required to not to hold their passengers ransom for more at inte…

Yes, and is Apple required to open their platform to porn apps ?

This is USA where private property rights are supposedly important despite government's attempts in other direction.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#142

Post by girvo » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:12 AM UTC

lawl wrote: post #106

brighteyes wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla did agree, following the criticism on Pocket, that shipping new things like Pocket should be done as addons, and would do the work to fix that.

Reacting to backlash isn't an argument. Why would you (or anyone) downvote me for criticising things like integrating a social API[0] into the browser? If you feel like downvoting opinions you don't like, by all means go ahead, I'm just not sure if that's the way to have a meaningful discussion. Pocket never bothered me because, honestly, I never saw it. But yes I dislike it's integration. Still no reason to reduce t…

Wait, they make a pretty bad move, people complain (rightly so), they go back on said move in response to that feedback and "Reacting to backlash isn't an argument"? Or am I reading your point incorrectly?

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#143

Post by girvo » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:14 AM UTC

chinpokomon wrote: post #123

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this: It was wrong for Microsoft, and it was wrong for Mozilla. But it's worse when it's Microsoft, because it's easier to move to a different browser than to move to a different OS, and so it's harder to escape Microsoft's attempts to force you to do what they want you to. Also, Microsoft has much more of a history of deliberately doing this to people, and so the suspicion is higher with Microsoft. Mozilla…

Is it harder to move to a different browser in Windows 10? I feel like you keep emphasizing how easy it is to change your browser and yet are still registering a complaint. I'm not sure what you are complaining about.

It's quite a bit more difficult. Last week I set a Windows 8 PC to use Chrome as the default; this was simple, two clicks and you're done. Now, it dumps you to a settings page which is a significant increase in steps required to set Chrome as the default. Those are the facts of this, however one can certainly make arguments as to why this is a better way of doing things for Windows.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#144

Post by girvo » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:15 AM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #130

brighteyes wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think reasonable criticisms were made regarding some of those, like Pocket. However, Australis for example was a large redesign of the UI. I'm not sure how you can support an opt-out, as that would mean supporting two codebases - two different and separate UIs, at once. Regarding bundling of DRM, it isn't bundled, but it is downloaded on demand. This is a sad thing even so, but Google, Microsoft and Netflix just le…

However, Australis for example was a large redesign of the UI. I'm not sure how you can support an opt-out, as that would mean supporting two codebases - two different and separate UIs, at once. Isn't it frustrating when a major software vendor takes a product you rely on, updates the whole UI in a way that makes the product worse for you and many other people using the desktop version primarily in order to try to ma…

> you'll also miss out on critical bug fixes and security updates for the old one within a few months?

I'm not disagreeing with your point, but can't you use the Firefox LTS releases for that exact reason?

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#145

Post by smacktoward » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:16 AM UTC

lawl wrote: post #106

brighteyes wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla did agree, following the criticism on Pocket, that shipping new things like Pocket should be done as addons, and would do the work to fix that.

Reacting to backlash isn't an argument. Why would you (or anyone) downvote me for criticising things like integrating a social API[0] into the browser? If you feel like downvoting opinions you don't like, by all means go ahead, I'm just not sure if that's the way to have a meaningful discussion. Pocket never bothered me because, honestly, I never saw it. But yes I dislike it's integration. Still no reason to reduce t…

"Reacting to backlash," a.k.a. admitting they made a mistake and agreeing to roll it back, is normally exactly what you want people to do when you criticize them.

Otherwise, what's the point of the criticism? Just to make yourself feel good?

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#146

Post by BinaryIdiot » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:24 AM UTC

Freaky wrote: post #62

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I upgraded my default changed from Chrome to Edge. When I clicked on my first URL, also in an email, it did not give me any choices which was kinda frustrating. Opening Chrome also didn't give me the whole "Chrome is not your default; do you want it to be?" dialog.

When I upgraded it gave me a page showing me the new defaults it was about to apply, and gave me the option to skip it and keep what I was using before. Went with the latter option and indeed, it's still all MPC-HC, foobar2000 and Opera. Maybe it's because I was upgrading from 8 you were upgrading from 7? I recall some changes to how defaults were handled between them.

> Maybe it's because I was upgrading from 8 you were upgrading from 7? I recall some changes to how defaults were handled between them.

Nope, upgraded from Windows 8.1. Not sure why I had a difference experience than you. I even went through the customize screens.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#147

Post by ikeboy » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:39 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #135

ikeboy wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OS update installs a new browser, which then sets itself as default.

When it's installed automatically it doesn't have the same intent behind it that justifies changing the setting.

Windows isn't installed automatically.

Let me lay out the analogy more explicitly. I install Firefox, and specifically choose for it not to be my default. I later download an updated version and choose default settings in the installation. Firefox then sets itself as the default browser; it overwrites my previous choice in favor of the default.

I install Windows. I specifically don't set explorer as the default. I install an updated version of Windows and choose default settings. Windows overrides my previous choice.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#148

Post by smacktoward » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:42 AM UTC

KeytarHero wrote: post #137

Dylan16807 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cute, but Firefox doesn't revert you to defaults and having a button that does nothing but offer a signup is not 'forced integration'. You may not be able to delete it but it doesn't do anything whatsoever by default.

> Firefox doesn't revert you to defaults You mean besides that time Firefox reverted everyone's search engine to Yahoo?

It only switched your search engine if you'd never changed from the original default (Google). If you had ever switched the search box to use a different engine, FF continued to respect that.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#149

Post by slowmovintarget » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:52 AM UTC

byuu wrote: post #64

verusfossa wrote: post #44

Mozilla hasn't made me very happy lately with their "choice" tactics. Resetting people's default search engine to Yahoo of all things on update was very opaque. Also the AMO signing fiasco, Pocket and Hello. Feels like an "It's only okay when we do it" kind of thing.

Yeah, this is the most "pot calling the kettle black" article I've seen all month. Let's see: * no opt-out for Australis * removal of tabs on bottom * forced signed extensions * removing option to not retain download history (unless you give up browsing history too) * bundling of Hello * bundling of Pocket (requires a lot of effort to disable) * bundling of DRM web extensions * bundling ads out of the box (can be dis…

I'm not going to defend Mozilla's hypocrisy.

Microsoft is in a different league with Windows 10, however. This was what they dreamed of 15 years ago. Once you install Windows 10, it's no longer your PC, it is Microsoft's.

  You can't choose to avoid an update.

Think about that. This means Microsoft can do anything it wants to with your computer:

* change your settings

* farm your compute cycles

* put in advertising

* install a pay gate to charge you per logon

* read your files

* add key loggers

* change your settings at their whim

They'll be able to do any of this whenever they want because YOU, the former owner of the machine, will not be allowed to circumvent or opt-out of "updates."

You haven't upgraded to the latest version of Office? Too bad, we're turning the one you have off.

We just signed a deal with a third party, so that video editing software that used to come with Windows... gone, but feel free to pay for that third party package in the app store.

We noticed you have some MP3 files that we didn't put on your machine. They'll have to go, or you can license them through us.

We're enhancing your security by removing Google Chrome... you see they didn't comply with our updated code signing policies. Sorry.

The last few hiccups with Mozilla are them being the Diet Coke of Evil in comparison.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#150

Post by byuu » Fri, Jul 31, 2015, 2:58 AM UTC

brighteyes wrote: post #90

byuu wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is the most "pot calling the kettle black" article I've seen all month. Let's see: * no opt-out for Australis * removal of tabs on bottom * forced signed extensions * removing option to not retain download history (unless you give up browsing history too) * bundling of Hello * bundling of Pocket (requires a lot of effort to disable) * bundling of DRM web extensions * bundling ads out of the box (can be dis…

I think reasonable criticisms were made regarding some of those, like Pocket. However, Australis for example was a large redesign of the UI. I'm not sure how you can support an opt-out, as that would mean supporting two codebases - two different and separate UIs, at once. Regarding bundling of DRM, it isn't bundled, but it is downloaded on demand. This is a sad thing even so, but Google, Microsoft and Netflix just le…

Australis wasn't necessary at all, though. It broke my ability to keep tabs on the bottom, it forced the refresh button into my URL bar (the opposite end of my other navigation buttons ... making it much more annoying to use), it killed my stop button, it took the bookmark icon out of my URL bar, and it broke my ability to see full page titles.

None of this enhanced anyone's productivity: it was change for the sake of change. That sort of thing is fine, but you should always offer a simulation of the behavior people are used to when you have millions of users. And if you don't have the manpower, then maybe reconsider making unnecessary changes in the first place ... nobody was abandoning Firefox because its UI stayed the same. Microsoft understood this at least until Windows 7, which you could easily make look and feel very much like Windows 95. But sadly the new trend in tech is to constantly force superfluous UI redesigns on users all the time with no opt-out. You see it with Google Mail, Skype, Windows, iOS, Android, Firefox, Gnome 3, on and on.

It's not just people hating change: there are people with disabilities that learn how to use this software, and changing things because some designer decided the UI "needed a refresh" can really destroy someone's entire workflow.

It would have even been okay if they had made it a bit more flexible in configuration, but they didn't. We lost a lot of control over how the UI operates. And so now I have to use yet another extension (Classic Theme Restorer), which is a bit buggy and might be discontinued at any point in the future.

And thanks for the correction on the DRM. But I wouldn't say they lost, I'd say they caved in. They weren't forced to support it, they chose to for the sake of their market share.