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Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

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Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#131

Post by MichaelGG »

Lazare wrote: post #111
brighteyes wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I just disagree that it would have been good for Mozilla to fudge the standardization rules. The rule of having multiple implementations is an important one. And it might have been possible - surely Google and Microsoft, who supported IndexedDB, had the resource to write an alternative implementation. I don't know the history enough to know why they didn't.

I think I'm more cynical about the process than you are. From my point of view, the process has been intensely political from day one, with rules honoured mainly in the breach. The best retelling of events, I think, is this one: http://nolanlawson.com/2014/04/26/web-sql-database-in-memori... Has some very good details. And it's certainly funny to see what was said during the discussion with how things turned out in p…

That's a very misleading summary. Mozilla is rather clear that they don't want to spec on a specific version of SQLite. The one thing that is weird is Mozilla saying that developers want "anything but SQL", which sounds like BS. But even if they were in agreement that SQL was great, the simple fact that there's no independent implementations of SQLite 3.6.whatever's SQL dialect is good enough reason to not make it a standard.

It does show the total need for a fast, JITable intermediate language, and the silliness in not having one from the start, or at least long, long ago.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#132

Post by ikeboy »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #124
ikeboy wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then what's wrong when an OS does it?

The OS does set itself to do OS things. OS shouldn't set your browser.

The OS update installs a new browser, which then sets itself as default.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#133

Post by michaelwww »

sonnyp wrote: post #86
oso2k wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. And I extend that sentiment to their approach to Web Standards a few years ago too, like WebSQL [0] and NaCl [1], Dart [2]. That felt like NIH [3] or some other non-collaborative or ultra-competitive motivation on their part. Not a place of "speak for the Web". IMO, the choice of IndexedDB over WebSQL set the Web back 20 years. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_SQL_Database [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

About WebSQL Firefox already had (and still has) Sqlite dependency (it is uses for bookmarks, history, ...) it is not the issue. The problem is that the Web SQL standard states "User agents must implement the SQL dialect supported by Sqlite 3.6.19." [0] which made agents rely on a outdated dependency and non standard (sqlite is not SQL ansible compatible) SQL. A nightmare for Web standards. They made the right (and h…

Google has the Dart VM running in Chrome and it's called Dartium. If Mozilla had not been so vigorously negative towards Dart the story of Dart and Blink may have turned out differently.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#134

Post by michaelwww »

Microsoft has a new browser they'd like people to load up and try out. I don't see the problem with making it the default browser in a free major upgrade of the OS. Small price to pay. I'm not suprised Microsoft ignored his complaints.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#135

Post by Dylan16807 »

ikeboy wrote: post #132
Dylan16807 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OS does set itself to do OS things. OS shouldn't set your browser.

The OS update installs a new browser, which then sets itself as default.

When it's installed automatically it doesn't have the same intent behind it that justifies changing the setting.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#136

Post by joe_the_user »

anotherangrydev wrote: post #99
brighteyes wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your sarcasm is entertaining, but the big difference is that while neither company/product is perfect, Microsoft still essentially owns the desktop with Windows. While Mozilla's Firefox is just one among several choices of web browser, currently #3 in the rankings. It is extremely easy to switch web browser. It is not easy to switch OS. On a Windows machine, if you are savvy enough, you can install Linux, but otherwi…

>Microsoft still essentially owns the desktop with Windows So what? That doesn't mean they are obliged to comply with whatever you think is "the right thing"®. I'm gonna highlight another another big difference that you seemed to overlook. Microsoft is a company, their mission is to generate profits for their shareholders and they are the owners of Windows 10, because they developed it. Mozilla is a non-profit corpor…

So what? That doesn't mean they are obliged to comply with whatever you think is "the right thing"®.

Yes they are. Those who own one or another monopoly-type chokepoints are required to do the right thing in the sense of not abusing their monopolies. ISP are required to connect you to the real internet rather than a walled-garden simulation, Airline are required to not to hold their passengers ransom for more at intermediate point in travel, Healthcare companies are required to provide real health care etc.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#137

Post by KeytarHero »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #89
Animats wrote: post #74

I am writing to you about a very disturbing aspect of Firefox 38.0.5. Specifically, that the update experience appears to have been designed to throw away the choice your customers have made about the Internet experience they want, and replace it with the Internet experience Mozilla wants them to have. When we first saw the Firefox upgrade experience that strips users of their choice by effectively overriding existin…

Cute, but Firefox doesn't revert you to defaults and having a button that does nothing but offer a signup is not 'forced integration'. You may not be able to delete it but it doesn't do anything whatsoever by default.

> Firefox doesn't revert you to defaults

You mean besides that time Firefox reverted everyone's search engine to Yahoo?

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#138

Post by GhotiFish »

Aldo_MX wrote: post #112
Spivak wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They aren't defaulting on IE7. Edge is fantastic. I really don't know where to start. I tried out edge for a few days and although the browser itself is pretty and functional it completely falls flat compared to existing players, including IE. I don't care what features they've announced for the future that may never happen. As the browser currently stands it's a toy and isn't the "browser for doing." I had hoped t…

> isn't the "browser for doing." Is that a bad point? If you want a "browser for doing" install Firefox and 2147483647 extensions until it explodes. The fact that the default browser is extremely minimalistic is something good, users just need a "browser for browsing".

I'd have to agree that having a minimalistic browser that prevents users from getting into too much trouble is a good thing.

If Microsoft decided to make Edge a purely minimal browser then expected you to get more sophisticated ones later if you needed more features, I'd actually be in favor of it.

They're not going to do that. I think we all know that.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#139

Post by Lazare »

MichaelGG wrote: post #131
Lazare wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'm more cynical about the process than you are. From my point of view, the process has been intensely political from day one, with rules honoured mainly in the breach. The best retelling of events, I think, is this one: http://nolanlawson.com/2014/04/26/web-sql-database-in-memori... Has some very good details. And it's certainly funny to see what was said during the discussion with how things turned out in p…

That's a very misleading summary. Mozilla is rather clear that they don't want to spec on a specific version of SQLite. The one thing that is weird is Mozilla saying that developers want "anything but SQL", which sounds like BS. But even if they were in agreement that SQL was great, the simple fact that there's no independent implementations of SQLite 3.6.whatever's SQL dialect is good enough reason to not make it a…

> Mozilla is rather clear that they don't want to spec on a specific version of SQLite

Not entirely true either. From the link:

> Hixie has said before he’s willing to fully spec the SQL dialect used by [WebSQL]. But since Mozilla categorically refuses to implement the spec (apparently regardless of whether the SQL dialect is specified), he doesn’t want to put in the work since it would be a comparatively poor use of time.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#140

Post by simoncion »

maratd wrote: post #31
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #19

I was pretty surprised when I installed Windows 10 and it changed to another default for my web browser. Even worse was it didn't reset the "do you want me as the default" in all of the other web browsers so I had to go and manually change settings. Microsoft Edge is pretty nice especially compared to IE but this default to Edge should have only occurred if your current default is IE.

To be fair, they reset all defaults. For images, video, everything. Google Chrome pops up a bar that takes you directly to the settings. It's literally two clicks to change it back. Microsoft should have preserved the defaults, but I think Google's solution is preferable to a complaint letter.

> To be fair, they reset all defaults. For images, video, everything.

Oh god. Kubuntu's KDE4->KDE5 transition did that to me. I really don't want to go through that again on my video game machine. :(

I guess I'll wait a month or so to see if MSFT changes their mind about the value of their "Replace the user's preferences with our defaults." position.

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