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Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

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Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#31

Post by jsprogrammer »

jsmeaton wrote: post #9
nindalf wrote: post #2

To get the viewpoint of people championing this agreement, I recommend reading this article by the Economist[1] where they say "for all its flaws, the biggest trade deal in years is good news for the world" [1] - http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21659716... For the record, I think the TPP is pernicious for all the reasons pointed out by the EFF.

I'm confused by this statement in the article you linked, and I've heard it before: > the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), is the most important free-trade agreement in years How does "29 chapters of dense rules and hundreds of tariff lines " == "free trade"? Free trade is meant to be open, without restriction, and free. Some of the conditions being reported are anything but.

I think it is a bit of an inside joke. It's laughable that anyone would consider a secretly negotiated agreement (have you seen any text?) "free".

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#34

Post by navait »

A_Beer_Clinked wrote: post #10
sillygeese wrote: post #3

Our representatives are representing us behind closed doors at a luxury hotel!

Is the fact that the talks are in a "Luxury Hotel" pertinent? The article doesn't explain how. Would the EFF be happier if the the "Secret TPP Talks Continue at a Reasonably Priced Motel as the Deal Grows More Controversial" Clearly the EFF doesn't like the process; but this phrasing is a cheap shot that distracts from the very important message. It's also one they've used a few times. https://www.eff.org/search/site…

You don't influence policy by talking about facts, especially when appealing to the public. You build a good story, and get people to read that story. A key aspect of is using symbols to imply things you can't outright say. (luxury hotel -> out of touch elite corporate fat cat). It's most important to do so when it's a technical issue most people don't have the domain knowledge to understnad.

The EFF is a successful lobbying organization, and would not have been nearly as successful if they didn't play this game. You want to keep the ability to use strong encryption? To protect your privacy? Well, you're going to have to tell some half-truths and make some cheap shots.

There are the people who stick to their principles, and then there are the people who actually do good in the world. You can't be both.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#35

Post by andy_ppp »

steego wrote: post #23
andy_ppp wrote: post #22

Why this needs to be done as one giant agreement seems crazy... A relevant example where this could be a good thing; I'd love for tech businesses in London to be as easy to invest in for Silicon Valley investors as local tech companies - this would be amazing for investors, London startup scene etc. - maybe it would require a special sort of company and also an easy way to move a company to CA if needed. There are lo…

> Why this needs to be done as one giant agreement seems crazy... If you want to circumvent debate and controversy, get all your buddies together and write up an omnibus agreement or bill. Bundling different ideas together makes it hard to talk about it, let alone debate it.

I go back and forward on this; is it really this brazen or do the people crafting TTIP and TPP really believe it'll make the world better. There must be some involved who think it'll create jobs and money for everyone.

Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic - it certainly does look like what you have said.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#36

Post by tptacek »

lemming wrote: post #30
tptacek wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the Reuters article carefully: that's all the money spent by all the members of the "US Business Coalition for TPP" on all lobbying , it's in the same order of magnitude as it was prior to TPP, and even the surge in spending now isn't all TPP. For instance, Boeing doubled their lobbying --- to lobby against the proposed elimination of the Export-Import Bank.

Sure, but even if it's not all TPP related - that is a truckload of money. I have no idea what you even spend that amount of money on - it would buy a lot of champagne and hookers for representatives.

Not only is it not all TPP related, it is mostly not TPP related. They cited the aggregate lobbying of all the (gigantic) members of a trade coalition, and that statistic is misleading.

The "champagne and hookers" snark is silly. Where do hundreds of millions of dollars in lobbying fees go? Approximately the same place as the hundreds of millions of dollars of donations to giant institutional charities go:

* Salaries for formal employees of the organization

* Contractor fees for copywriting, advertising, event planning, legal

* Giant advertising and promotional campaigns

* Fundraising

* Direct political donations

* PAC donations

Just replace "food banks" and "medical care" with "report writing" and you're close.

Lobbying isn't a great thing, and it interacts very badly with PACs, but it certainly isn't millions of dollars in strippers. Mostly, it's a scam to skim money off the political process and into the pockets of lobbyists and their firms.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#37

Post by [deleted] »

smutticus wrote: post #29

For a harbinger of what's to come, look into what's happening in Romania with their Rosia Montana gold mine. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-09-11/paulson-ba... http://www.miningfacts.org/Blog/Mining-News/Canadian-Miner-P... Basically a Canadian company will most likely sue the Romanian government for refusing to allow an open pit gold mine. They won't do this in a Romanian court. Just like we saw with Gr…

[deleted]

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#38

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

andy_ppp wrote: post #35
steego wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why this needs to be done as one giant agreement seems crazy... If you want to circumvent debate and controversy, get all your buddies together and write up an omnibus agreement or bill. Bundling different ideas together makes it hard to talk about it, let alone debate it.

I go back and forward on this; is it really this brazen or do the people crafting TTIP and TPP really believe it'll make the world better. There must be some involved who think it'll create jobs and money for everyone. Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic - it certainly does look like what you have said.

Obviously the people involved think it will make the world better for some people.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#39

Post by ccvannorman »

dkns wrote: post #33

Can somebody ELI5 the whole TPP thing? As an European should I be concerned? Does it matter only to countries involved?

The TPP is a wholesome beneficial legislation, orchestrated by businesses around the world to ensure their continued profits and ownership of capital creation, such as copyright (it will be harder to share content online without paying for it and DMCA youtube takedown style action will increase.) Furthermore it allows corporations to legally prosecute governments for getting in the way of their hard-earned profits or potential profits, for example if you don't allow a gold mining corporation to mine your gold, you as a country will be sued for the value of that gold.

I can't understand why everyone has got their panties in a bunch over this; that small group of people with capital who makes and influences the laws will do what they can to make sure they keep getting the capital for the future, so that there is less transfer of wealth, which is necessary for a stable global economy.. I personally am looking forwards to when governments are abolished entirely and corporations simply write laws along side their company charters. Whichever corporation has more money, has more rights to enforce their laws.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#40

Post by andy_ppp »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #38
andy_ppp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I go back and forward on this; is it really this brazen or do the people crafting TTIP and TPP really believe it'll make the world better. There must be some involved who think it'll create jobs and money for everyone. Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic - it certainly does look like what you have said.

Obviously the people involved think it will make the world better for some people.

I suppose it comes back to this crazy religion (Ayn Rand et. al.) that looking after yourself at the expense of others is the only way to make the world stable. It's very convenient for people who are being selfish or making things worse to agree with such crackpot ideas.
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