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GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

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Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#491

Post by marrs »

palmer_eldritch wrote: post #461
DanBC wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cognitive dissonance of people downvoting comments when they are complaining about censorship is baffling. The hypocrisy is weird.

Downvoting isn't equal to censorship. The content remains available for anyone with an account. The commit history of this project remains available too... however, they forbid the authors to use the word in the live version if they want their project to be hosted on github. Now, I guess it's their prerogative to set the rules for people using their service. But I think it's also fair to say that being the facebook o…

    Downvoting isn't equal to censorship
Downvoting obscures the post being downvoted, so it kind of is.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#493

Post by palmer_eldritch »

morganvachon wrote: post #487
palmer_eldritch wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoting isn't equal to censorship. The content remains available for anyone with an account. The commit history of this project remains available too... however, they forbid the authors to use the word in the live version if they want their project to be hosted on github. Now, I guess it's their prerogative to set the rules for people using their service. But I think it's also fair to say that being the facebook o…

> Downvoting isn't equal to censorship. Except when it is. Given sufficient downvotes, a post will fade to the same color as the background, making it easy to scroll past and not see it. Whether you want to admit it or not, brigading happens here too, and once in a while a perfectly valid, thoughtful, and reasoned response is silenced because it doesn't fit in with the group mentality here. The only solution for this…

> Except when it is. Given sufficient downvotes, a post will fade to the same color as the background, making it easy to scroll past and not see it.

It doesn't change anything. The content is still available for anyone to see if they want to.

Censorship is about making content unavailable. Not giving the exact same visibility to everything out there isn't censorship. Or upvoting is also a form of censorship, since it moves content above less-upvoted comments making less-upvoted comments more likely to be missed by people who won't scroll to the end of the page.

And for anyone used to HN's way of doing things, it's not hard to spot faded comments and highlight them if they seem of interest given the context around them.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#494

Post by monstruoso »

rmc wrote: post #435
manicdee wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First they came for the cussers and swearers, but I didn't speak out because I don't cuss or swear. Then they came for the homophobes and cisgendered bigots, and I cheered them on, because I value diversity. Then they came for the conspiracy theorists, and I didn't speak out because I don't believe the reptoids are evil. Then they came for me, and there was none left to speak out.

You're right. This is just like the Holocaust.

He didn't say that.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#495

Post by huu »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #453
huu wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you're a parent who happens upon a repo that uses the word "retard" as a replacement for "stupid person" or "idiot". You also happen to have a mentally disabled child. Perhaps you would have contributed to that repository and now you won't. That seems materially harmful to me, to reduce the sum total of people contributing to open source. Compare that to the potential of falling down a slippery slope to "tota…

Imagine you're a person who hates women who happens upon a repo that uses "she" as the universal gender. Perhaps you would have contributed to that repository and now you won't. Is it therefore "harmful" to use "she" as universal gender? "People with biases might not like it" gives basically everyone a heckler's veto. Now I recognize that you don't actually plan to give everyone with a bias such a veto - only the peo…

This is a valid point. I don't really have a response to it other than, I know people like the one I asked y'all to imagine, but I'm having trouble thinking of anyone I know who might fit your imaginary person's description.

You're probably right that this betrays a bias of mine. And you're also probably right that this isn't a great guiding principle for decision-making in the future.

Still, if I'm interested in increasing the total number of people contributing to open source projects, I would give an issue like the use of the word "retard" a fighter's chance.

Maybe it's not worth bending on free speech in some specific cases, but there is a point where it is worth it, ie, if there are enough people in the offended audience that the chance of losing a potential contributor is nontrivial.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#496

Post by DanBC »

jessaustin wrote: post #479
DanBC wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bit tricky if you include "dyslexic" (higher incidence of high IQ) in your definition of LD. See how your ignorance of the topic misled you?

"LD" is your term, which apparently is too general to be useful. As problematic as "retard" may be, no English speaker would hear it and ask herself, "are they talking about a dyslexic?"

People who don't know what they're talking about might make incorrect assumptions. I agree with you there. I don't think ignorance of a topic is a valid excuse to continue to be wrong.

http://ldaamerica.org/types-of-learning-disabilities/dyslexi...

From the "Learning Disabilities Association of America"

> The severity of this specific learning disability can differ in each individual but can affect reading fluency, decoding, reading comprehension, recall, writing, spelling, and sometimes speech and can exist along with other related disorders. Dyslexia is sometimes referred to as a Language-Based Learning Disability.

From a US university support site: http://dyslexiahelp.umich.edu/dyslexics/learn-about-dyslexia...

> Fact: Similar to the above myth, the International Dyslexia Foundation states that between 15% and 20% of the population have a language-based learning disability, dyslexia being the most common of these. The United States Department of Health and Human Services estimates that 15% of the U.S. population has dyslexia.

The fact you think LD is "my term" shows how ignorant you are of the topic. The fact you think dyslexia isn't an LD also shows your ignorance of the topic.

EDIT: since this thread is about the word "retard" it's probably relevant to remind people about how people with dyslexia were often dismissed as being stupid, lazy, retarded.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#497

Post by Taek »

glass- wrote: post #431
Mikushi wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is it offensive? Yes. Can we stop saying this as a universal truth? You find it offensive. I and millions other people don't. You deal with it.

You don't find it offensive. I and millions of other people do. You deal with it.

People getting offended is not the issue. If everyone chose to never offend anybody else, my mother would never know that she makes bad pasta and we'd all have to eat bad pasta 3 times a week.

You want to draw the line at marginalizing a group of people or trivializing something serious like racism. But you want to make sure you are doing it in a way that isn't inhibiting legitimate thoughts, studies, projects, etc. from making it into the public sphere.

Every time you censor speech you stifle legitimate dialog because people will be uncertain whether their thoughts are legitimate or just offensive.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#498

Post by marrs »

Perseids wrote: post #401
thedz wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This isn't censorship of the type that is illegal or not allowed. It is a private company deciding a word was inappropriate. 2. It seems like most in this comment thread agree that this action, as a singular act, is a good thing. The word was offensive. Github asked the repo to change it. They did. The end. 3. As for the larger context, the problem with the frequent use of slippery slope arguments and cries of "ce…

> 1. This isn't censorship of the type that is illegal or not allowed. It is a private company deciding a word was inappropriate. It is a private company, alright, but it is also becoming a critical company for the internet as a whole. Which points to an important question our society will have to face more and more often with increasing centralization and globalization: When does a company become essential infrastru…

    It is a private company, alright, but it is also becoming a critical company for the internet as a whole
Hardly. OSS was in a very healthy state before Github and it will manage just fine without it. I'm not saying Github doesn't add value - it absolutely does - but if it died tomorrow, I'd simply create an account at a different vendor, push my repos to it, and pick up the pieces from there.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#499

Post by monstruoso »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #489
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

r-at-t-dollar-rd? how do you even pronounce that? Anyway as a git I am offended by the use of the word git and it makes it hard for me to participate in such spaces.

Offence is meaningless. White people are occasionally offended by 'cracker', rich people by other terms, but they don't cause material harm to them. But people of colour are hurt by words like 'n$@!%r".

Words themselves have no meaning. The meaning is derived by the intention and context. It is perfectly correct to use nigger in some context. Just look at Louis CK or George Carlin. Actually George Carlin made a bit about the word nigger and he made pretty good arguments against the American obsession with "bad" words. The Americans have a very childish attitude towards this, I haven't seen any country were adults refer to words by their first letter.

As if somehow euphemism make everything ok, even though you say 'n$@!%r", you are still saying nigger.

Re: GitHub threatens to shut down a repository for using the word 'retard'

#500

Post by njharman »

thedz wrote: post #116
CoryG89 wrote: post #40

For people who don't see what's wrong here. The issue is not about whether the word 'retard' is or is not offensive to anyone. You need to consider that GitHub currently hosts a large percentage of the web's open source repositories. This is censorship plain and simple, something that IMO has no place in open source. The issue is that there are plenty of things some people might find offensive on GitHub but you dont…

1. This isn't censorship of the type that is illegal or not allowed. It is a private company deciding a word was inappropriate. 2. It seems like most in this comment thread agree that this action, as a singular act, is a good thing. The word was offensive. Github asked the repo to change it. They did. The end. 3. As for the larger context, the problem with the frequent use of slippery slope arguments and cries of "ce…

1. Obviously or there'd be a lawsuit. Not everything that is wrong or destructive is coded into law. Censorship as a concept exists outside of the law. All censorship, legal or not, should be strongly scrutinized.
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