Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

eff.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 66 posts

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#11

Post by martincmartin »

jsmeaton wrote: post #9
nindalf wrote: post #2

To get the viewpoint of people championing this agreement, I recommend reading this article by the Economist[1] where they say "for all its flaws, the biggest trade deal in years is good news for the world" [1] - http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21659716... For the record, I think the TPP is pernicious for all the reasons pointed out by the EFF.

I'm confused by this statement in the article you linked, and I've heard it before: > the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), is the most important free-trade agreement in years How does "29 chapters of dense rules and hundreds of tariff lines " == "free trade"? Free trade is meant to be open, without restriction, and free. Some of the conditions being reported are anything but.

It's lowering barriers to trade, making it easier for goods made in one country to be sold in another. One way it does that is by harmonizing regulations, so you don't need to make different versions for different countries, or pay for lawyers to explain compliance laws separately for each country.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#12

Post by toyg »

A_Beer_Clinked wrote: post #10
sillygeese wrote: post #3

Our representatives are representing us behind closed doors at a luxury hotel!

Is the fact that the talks are in a "Luxury Hotel" pertinent? The article doesn't explain how. Would the EFF be happier if the the "Secret TPP Talks Continue at a Reasonably Priced Motel as the Deal Grows More Controversial" Clearly the EFF doesn't like the process; but this phrasing is a cheap shot that distracts from the very important message. It's also one they've used a few times. https://www.eff.org/search/site…

You're projecting a bit of your own prejudices there. The concept of Luxury Hotel is not just about "luxury": it implies good security and inaccessibility for regular people. A "reasonably priced motel" would provide neither.

So yes, the fact that it's a "Luxury Hotel" is important to the argument that talks are being held behind closed doors and away from the public, rather than in public spaces where they belong.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#13

Post by pdkl95 »

jsmeaton wrote: post #9
nindalf wrote: post #2

To get the viewpoint of people championing this agreement, I recommend reading this article by the Economist[1] where they say "for all its flaws, the biggest trade deal in years is good news for the world" [1] - http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21659716... For the record, I think the TPP is pernicious for all the reasons pointed out by the EFF.

I'm confused by this statement in the article you linked, and I've heard it before: > the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), is the most important free-trade agreement in years How does "29 chapters of dense rules and hundreds of tariff lines " == "free trade"? Free trade is meant to be open, without restriction, and free. Some of the conditions being reported are anything but.

The word-game being played with the TPP is when they talk about "free trade", it isn't generally referring to the free trade of goods or services. The last century of trade agreements already removed most tariffs[1].

Instead, when the TPP (et al) talk about "free trade", they are referring to the free trade of capital, which is an absolutely insane idea[2]. As you note, as it relates to actual goods and services, the TPP is generally restrictive, which is probably part of the larger goal of creating corporate sovereignty (e.g. ISDS), and general export of western power (e.g. the IP restrictions).

TL;DR - It's imperialism via corporate corruption and regulatory capture.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_histo...

[2] http://economixcomix.com/home/tpp/

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#14

Post by lemming »

This article [1] linked from the OP contains the following fact: the pro-TPP lobby spent $135 million in the second quarter of 2015.

I mean, I know lobbying costs money, but where can that much money possibly go?

[1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/23/us-trade-tpp-lobby...

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#15

Post by ekianjo »

lemming wrote: post #14

This article [1] linked from the OP contains the following fact: the pro-TPP lobby spent $135 million in the second quarter of 2015. I mean, I know lobbying costs money, but where can that much money possibly go? [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/23/us-trade-tpp-lobby...

Let me guess... corruption?

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#16

Post by ekianjo »

nindalf wrote: post #2

To get the viewpoint of people championing this agreement, I recommend reading this article by the Economist[1] where they say "for all its flaws, the biggest trade deal in years is good news for the world" [1] - http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21659716... For the record, I think the TPP is pernicious for all the reasons pointed out by the EFF.

If its THAT good why does it need so much opacity and secrecy?

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#17

Post by sillygeese »

A_Beer_Clinked wrote: post #10
sillygeese wrote: post #3

Our representatives are representing us behind closed doors at a luxury hotel!

Is the fact that the talks are in a "Luxury Hotel" pertinent? The article doesn't explain how. Would the EFF be happier if the the "Secret TPP Talks Continue at a Reasonably Priced Motel as the Deal Grows More Controversial" Clearly the EFF doesn't like the process; but this phrasing is a cheap shot that distracts from the very important message. It's also one they've used a few times. https://www.eff.org/search/site…

They're devising new ways to shaft us, and using our money to pay for a luxury hotel to do it in. So yes, it's pertinent.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#18

Post by evgen »

ekianjo wrote: post #16
nindalf wrote: post #2

To get the viewpoint of people championing this agreement, I recommend reading this article by the Economist[1] where they say "for all its flaws, the biggest trade deal in years is good news for the world" [1] - http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21659716... For the record, I think the TPP is pernicious for all the reasons pointed out by the EFF.

If its THAT good why does it need so much opacity and secrecy?

All trade agreements are negotiated in secret. All of them. Just like your salary was not negotiated in the company break room...

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#19

Post by leereeves »

evgen wrote: post #18
ekianjo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its THAT good why does it need so much opacity and secrecy?

All trade agreements are negotiated in secret. All of them. Just like your salary was not negotiated in the company break room...

> Just like your salary was not negotiated in the company break room...

But hopefully you were there.

This is like you (the people) hiring a lawyer (elected representative), who then goes to negotiate your salary in secret without you.

And who receives all kinds of benefits for himself in exchange for accepting a low salary for you.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#20

Post by tptacek »

lemming wrote: post #14

This article [1] linked from the OP contains the following fact: the pro-TPP lobby spent $135 million in the second quarter of 2015. I mean, I know lobbying costs money, but where can that much money possibly go? [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/23/us-trade-tpp-lobby...

Read the Reuters article carefully: that's all the money spent by all the members of the "US Business Coalition for TPP" on all lobbying, it's in the same order of magnitude as it was prior to TPP, and even the surge in spending now isn't all TPP. For instance, Boeing doubled their lobbying --- to lobby against the proposed elimination of the Export-Import Bank.
Post reply on HN