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Stop pushing the web forward

quirksmode.org

241–250 of 307 posts

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#241

We need a break. We need an opportunity to learn to the features we already have responsibly — without tools! Also, we need the time for a fundamental conversation about where we want to push the web forward to. How about this.. YOU take a break. Stop trying to keep up with every little new thing that comes out. Wait a while. And you'll get exactly what you want. The tools that it turns out were a bad idea will die.…

> The tools that it turns out were a bad idea will die. And those that are good will thrive. We saw that happen with WebSQL vs IndexedDB. A well-designed API (with a syntax every decent webdev knows) vs a bullshit spec (ohai callback hell FOR DOING A SIMPLE FUCKING SORT AND GROUP), and the bullshit won.

It's not that simple.

1. The spec died, because it didn't get two independent implementations.

Everyone merely wrapped sqlite, which meant sites could rely on being bug-compatible with all the sqlite weirdnesses (e.g. column type "floating point" parses as integer column type), and making any future upgrades or fixes of sqlite a Web-wide version of pain of upgrading IE6 used for an intranet site.

2. IndexedDB API is a pain to use, because it's designed to be used directly. In the spirit of extensible web manifesto, it's a low-level primitive for JS libraries to build convenient higher-level abstractions on top of.

It's like an "assembly" of storage. It's supposed to enable building higher-level databases on top, so you can have SQL or NoSQL with whatever dialect you want, without burdening the platform with it. Use Dexie, localForage, ydn or such.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#242

"Native apps will always be much better at native than a browser. Instead, we should focus on the web’s strengths: simplicity, URLs and reach." For me, the web's main strength is that you have to write your application only once. I don't have to think about redesigning the UI because "that's not the iOS way" or "that's not the Android way." I don't have switch between different languages and write the same damn thing…

Agreed. I for one do not want to be forced to develop on 3 platforms just to provide a decent user experience. Take all that effort and focus it in one place to create a truly great experience.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#243
Who's "we"? I know it's a blog and he's probably just going for a colloquial tone, but I always find this notion of some great big web development community weird. The web is countless tribes with differing goals, and if your call is to non-action all you're really doing is leaving the future to those that act.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#244
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the only languages available are HTML, CSS and JavaScript which are just more than bad for application development because of so many reasons. I would rather see something like Ubuntu Touch tries where they write the frontend with QML and you can have backends in C++ for speed.

> But the only languages available are HTML, CSS and JavaScript... Eh, there is the canvas, and WebAsm. They make for a full blown VM if you don't mind shipping a several MB large interpreter with your page. Next step should be installing the interpreter on the browser, for everybody to use... Then we can create Flash all over again. (Now, if somebody gets a way to do that full VM thing in a way that is compatible wi…

>"Web ASM [...] installing the interpreter on the browser, for everybody to use... Then we can create Flash all over again."

That's ridiculous. Is Javascript "like flash" because most browsers ship a several MB interpreter for it?

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#245
One thing I do to try to slow down the rate of change on the web is to upgrade my browser less often than most people.

Specifically, I use Firefox Extended Support Release (ESR).

Mozilla resisted providing this "update channel" (Firefox ESR) for years, but eventually yielded to the desires of large IT departments. Despite Mozilla's writing that "Firefox ESR is meant for organizations", with only one or 2 minor problems (with plugins IIRC), which I easily solved by upgrading temporarily to Firefox's normal ("release") "update channel", I've used it personally for years.

Below is a link to the best page I've been able to find to download Firefox ESR, but note that both version 31esr and version 38esr are available from the page below. Version 31esr is still supported with security patches and is what I have been using. It is my understanding that before it stops getting security patches, version 31esr will automatically upgrade itself to version 38esr.

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/all/?q=e...

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#246
I think we need two primary things to solve this "problem".

1) we need more browsers

I know this probably sounds counter-intuitive, but I think I have a good explanation for it.

2) we need to allow developers to "choose" browser of choice that renders their page / app / whatever in the (what I would call "meta-browser").

The architecture of browsers is incorrect in that instead of having a few browsers, all of which developers must support, we need one (or a few) "shell applications", which "host" browsers. Browsers can then begin to become specialized and diversify in directions they want to (instead of forcing everyone to stay up to date with everything).

Today I agree, it's a circus, trying to keep up with things, and figuring out how to mash stuff together in order to ensure cross-browser compatibility.

So, how do we get things to a point where a developer gets to "choose" the browser for the user? Probably one of the simplest would be to pass HTTP headers which tell the "shell application" which browser to render the web app / site / whatever in.

There is not enough room in one HN comment to explain the nuances that I think can be solved relatively easily (ie. security, user confusion, etc).

I did write a blog post that explains more or less what I am talking about here:

https://medium.com/@datashovel/why-isn-t-there-a-meta-browse...

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#247
I'll make the opinion purely from a self-interested developer standpoint:

I'd rather push the web forward and have it at least stay "somewhat" close to native (no it'll never be better) and constantly learn new features... rather than:

.... have it lag behind native even more and thus create even more pressure on myself, my company, and my career to adopt, learn, and build native alongside web.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#248
If you can't keep up then don't.

Some of us have ideas we've been wanting to implement and are just waiting until a browser feature becomes available and widespread enough that it is a possibility.

I don't want to have to develop for the web and an Android app.

I don't want to have to develop for the web and an iOS app.

I don't want to have to develop for the web and a .NET app.

I don't want to pay 30% to a company just so they will let me deploy MY OWN app to MY OWN users.

I don't want to have another company dictate what I can or can not provide to my users.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#249

I think we need two primary things to solve this "problem". 1) we need more browsers I know this probably sounds counter-intuitive, but I think I have a good explanation for it. 2) we need to allow developers to "choose" browser of choice that renders their page / app / whatever in the (what I would call "meta-browser"). The architecture of browsers is incorrect in that instead of having a few browsers, all of which…

With all that said, I really do hope the OP was saying all he had to say in jest. It seems ridiculous that one person should have any expectation they (no matter how well known they are to the community) can stand up in a crowd of 7 billion people and say "hold on, let's stop and think about what we're doing". This assumes all 7 billion (or even most of them) are not thinking before doing, or can't possibly be certain about what they're doing without express written consent of OP.

Just because one person can't possibly keep up with all that is happening in the world doesn't mean everyone should feel obligated to stop to allow them to catch up.

OP also seems to imply it'll be near impossible to reverse out of what is going into the web, no matter how good or bad those decisions are. I think it's a bad assumption. Things will continue to move forward. Whether that means one company or two decide to take two steps back is another question, but in general the web will (and should) continue moving forward. It's a great idea to have "web as platform", and not "web as html and links".

Please web, don't change direction of your thinking. You're on the right track. We just need some relatively minor architectural changes to make it go more smoothly for more people out here doing what we're doing.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#250
I'll state it somewhat differently: Stop pushing the specs forward - finish implementing the specs.

If all those spec writing engineers were told "sorry, the spec store is closed", they might actually get their hands dirty writing code for the current specs. Hell, I might even lend my tired old hands if there were a moratorium on new specs.

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