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Stop pushing the web forward

quirksmode.org

41–50 of 307 posts

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#41
PPK, I'm sorry but you are midair, directly above the shark on this. Its not too late to change course though.

We realize you are a mobile consultant, and standardizing many features in a cross platform is a threat to you and your client base. But getting on your soap box and telling people to not add features to browsers is unhelpful and myopic.

Not everyone uses your stupid mobile platforms. Some people in the world don't even have a phone at all. But they might be able to use a browser once in a while. Do they not deserve features just because you have decided that it would be too difficult to implement in the browser, and will "never be as good as native" or however you put it. Your failure to see how things could be implemented faster/better/cheaper does not preclude others from actually getting things done.

I actually agree with many of the points that you make, but seriously... try to see the forest for the trees and take a look at what you're asking of people, and ask yourself why you are doing that.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#42
"Native apps will always be much better at native than a browser. Instead, we should focus on the web’s strengths: simplicity, URLs and reach."

For me, the web's main strength is that you have to write your application only once. I don't have to think about redesigning the UI because "that's not the iOS way" or "that's not the Android way." I don't have switch between different languages and write the same damn thing one more time. I don't have to hire a whole team to have an idea see the light of day and be accessible to the great majority of people. And if my idea is a little idea, I don't have to struggle so much to get people to check it out, given that installing an app is a much bigger barrier than clicking a link.

I understand that if I want to be on the bleeding edge, and I want it to be optimal whether it runs on a phone, a tablet, or a computer-proper, browser dev can be challenging. But I don't always have to be on the bleeding edge.

Still, it's nice to know that browsers are becoming more and more capable, so there isn't quite as huge a chasm between native apps and something that runs in a browser. That's an artificial distinction.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#43
post #24
post #9

I've seen this sentiment a few times: "don't try to replicate native apps in the browser." Which makes sense from the standpoint that the browser is just getting ridiculous, like a mini-OS unto itself. However, web apps also allow organizations to write once for many platforms in a much more seamless way than most cross-platform native toolkits I've seen. It's the same reason that desktop Java was in vogue for a litt…

Totally agree. Just look at the mess with mobile OS. It is nearly impossible to develop a native app yourself without excluding half of the world population. In my opinion, native mobile apps have been always an intermediary and I wouldn't mind seeing all of them going away if some better web app alternative comes along.

> In my opinion, native mobile apps have been always an intermediary and I wouldn't mind seeing all of them going away if some better web app alternative comes along.

As primarily a user of mobile apps I would mind. A web app experience is at the mercy of the network I happen to be connected to. In addition, as a user, the "build once, run anywhere" feature of web apps is a disadvantage since it often means that apps are written with the lowest common denominator in mind and don't quite blend in with the look and feel of either major mobile OS.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#44
The cool thing about many of these features is that I can push out some code that I can share with a hyperlink and other people can run it without installing anything other than a browser.

The authoring experience is still terrible. And the user experience still requires hopping over the secret, invisible wall into developer-tools land... but the potential is there. If you're savvy enough to open your web console and view source you can mess around with some code I wrote to demonstrate some fundamental procedural algorithms[0].

I chose Javascript and because everyone has a Javascript interpreter and most browsers today support . If I had chosen to demonstrate these algorithms in Python, for example, I'd have to expect my reader to download and install a Python interpreter for their system, download or copy/paste my examples, and load them into their REPL before they could start playing around. The browser experience requires fewer steps.

A moratorium would be a welcome change of pace, IMO. It'd be nice to close the gap between the user and the developer and between document, code, and media. It'd be nice if authoring tools for these environments could catch up with the available features.

On the other side of the coin the proposed common byte-code format is really exciting and practical for all sorts of reasons -- in the case of my aforementioned blog post I think there are better languages to teach with than Javascript and having that language be available as a first-class citizen in any web document would be a boon.

I think some features would still be worth pursuing in favor of others.

[0] http://agentultra.com/2015/06/24/introduction-to-procedural-...

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#45
post #8

> But why do web developers want navigation transitions? In order to emulate native apps, of course. If we're doing unpopular opinion time, I think this is the real issue that no one wants to talk about. I'm all for whatever feature development the community can standardize. Apple, google, mozilla, and etc. all have smart people working for them and when they cooperate things seem to work out fine. The problem is try…

I think this is shortsighted. In 5-10 years browsers will be more Virtual Machine than Web Browser. You can almost argue that they already are.

As browsers and phones get more and more performant, the idea of emulating native apps in the browser won't have the performance stigma attached to it.

This same thing played out with Java et. al. It was dismissed for being non-performant when compared to C/C++(aka native code) because it ran inside a heavy VM but nowadays the performance is just fine for an enormous amount of applications because the virtual machines and hardware got faster.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#46
post #9

I've seen this sentiment a few times: "don't try to replicate native apps in the browser." Which makes sense from the standpoint that the browser is just getting ridiculous, like a mini-OS unto itself. However, web apps also allow organizations to write once for many platforms in a much more seamless way than most cross-platform native toolkits I've seen. It's the same reason that desktop Java was in vogue for a litt…

We need a viewport-size-agnostic graphical native sandbox that works on x86_64 and ARM, and can be reasonably sure is escape-proof. Which is hard to do if you let it have multitasking and access to graphics drivers.

Then we need a means of letting it have just enough network access to be useful but not enough to exploit the rest of your system, bearing in mind the discussion of WebRTC going on at the moment.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#47

We need a break. We need an opportunity to learn to the features we already have responsibly — without tools! Also, we need the time for a fundamental conversation about where we want to push the web forward to. How about this.. YOU take a break. Stop trying to keep up with every little new thing that comes out. Wait a while. And you'll get exactly what you want. The tools that it turns out were a bad idea will die.…

This is the part that feels the most misguided to me:

> a fundamental conversation about where we want to push the web forward to.

There's no such thing as a "conversation" between the billions of people with a stake in this. Or even the few million people building websites and web apps. Or even the few thousand people building web browsers. Attempting to have that conversation just means open-ended delay. There will never be a clear consensus on where we want to push the web forward to. And that's OK.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#48
post #9

I've seen this sentiment a few times: "don't try to replicate native apps in the browser." Which makes sense from the standpoint that the browser is just getting ridiculous, like a mini-OS unto itself. However, web apps also allow organizations to write once for many platforms in a much more seamless way than most cross-platform native toolkits I've seen. It's the same reason that desktop Java was in vogue for a litt…

The cross platform experience will never match the native experience. Think about on the desktop. The only cross platform apps that behave natively on Mac, Windows, GNOME (and derivatives) and KDE are apps tha have completely separate front-ends for every platform. Firefox is an ok example of this, although it in a way forms its own platform rather than integrating with its host, still it pulls it off better than other cross-platform apps. The Transmission bittorrent client is perhaps a better example, it has at least 4 mature front ends: gtk, qt, cli and os x. This is only feasible for a little free software project like Transmission because its UI is fairly simple, it has a list of torrents, a settings dialog and a properties panel.

Most apps that try to be cross platform just use a UI toolkit that acts as a cross platform compatability layer. Qt, GTK, Swing, WxWidgets and Tk all fit the bill. The result is that the app doesn't look good or integrate especially deeply into any platform, except sometimes with the platform the the developers personally use.

There are few exceptions to this rule. One is Sublime Text 2+ which is built on Qt. Without any customization, its theme looks OK, but doesn't match the design language of any platform, and its integration with its host platform is non-existant, everything happens within the sublime text window (no notifications or system tray/menubar widgets, no quick-view previews in Finder or Nautilus, etc). It's possible to improve integration by intstalling a custom theme which lets the user override a lot of the UI design, including the margins and padding, and plugins are written in python and can access a lot of host platform features.

If you want a native experience, you have to write a native app. You can share your business logic by linking to the same C++ code or in the future maybe by using react native and sharing the same non-view code. But your UI-layer has to be tailored specifically to the host platform in order to look good.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#49
post #41

PPK, I'm sorry but you are midair, directly above the shark on this. Its not too late to change course though. We realize you are a mobile consultant, and standardizing many features in a cross platform is a threat to you and your client base. But getting on your soap box and telling people to not add features to browsers is unhelpful and myopic. Not everyone uses your stupid mobile platforms. Some people in the worl…

I've spent the last two years doing "full stack" [yeah, those words, sorry . . . but going from bare metal to C++ to PHP/JavaScript to frobbing routers all on the same day probably qualifies], coming from a background of C/C++ driver and native code development for 30 years.

What I see is an immature community that cannot make up its mind. I see fads, I see awful tools, and even more awful tools that try to fix the awful tools. I see standards committees that pump out unimplementable garbage and I see device manufacturers who think they are good at writing software (and they are not). I see very bad, widespread and unpatchable security holes. I read, every week, about the latest fad thing that will fix all your problems, just install a list of 30 packages and suffer per-page downloads that are larger than the native apps this mess is trying, badly, to replace.

I guess this will all shake out. But in the mean time, I am shaking my head.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#50
post #45
post #8

> But why do web developers want navigation transitions? In order to emulate native apps, of course. If we're doing unpopular opinion time, I think this is the real issue that no one wants to talk about. I'm all for whatever feature development the community can standardize. Apple, google, mozilla, and etc. all have smart people working for them and when they cooperate things seem to work out fine. The problem is try…

I think this is shortsighted. In 5-10 years browsers will be more Virtual Machine than Web Browser. You can almost argue that they already are. As browsers and phones get more and more performant, the idea of emulating native apps in the browser won't have the performance stigma attached to it. This same thing played out with Java et. al. It was dismissed for being non-performant when compared to C/C++(aka native cod…

Probably will be more like a URL link aware VNC viewer. That has some interesting implications for the back end WRT emulation.
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